Neuroaffirming Teaching From The Inside

There is a quiet strength to this episode. From discovering his own neurodivergence later in life, to supporting children in ways that help them feel understood rather than managed, Simon Airey shares what teaching looks like when you experience the world a little differently.

When we think about what makes a good teacher, we often talk about knowledge, experience and patience.

But what happens when the teacher is autistic too?

In this episode I sat down with autistic teacher and consultant Simon Airey to talk about how his own lived experience has shaped the way he teaches, supports behaviour and works alongside families.

We talked about why neuroaffirming practice is so much more than a poster on the wall, how understanding behaviour changes when you stop asking "What's wrong with this child?" and start asking "What does this child need?", and why some of the simplest adaptations can make the biggest difference.

What I could hear was was how often Simon noticed the things that could easily be missed. The child who isn't refusing to start their work but doesn't know how to begin. The child who needs movement rather than being told off. The teacher themselves who quietly puts on ear defenders or takes ten minutes to reset so they can keep showing up for their class.

It's a conversation about education, but it's also about understanding people.

You can connect with Simon here: 

https://www.instagram.com/neuroaffirmingwithsimon/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Untypical Podcaster Lab 

If you'd love to start a podcast but the usual advice just doesn't seem to fit you, come and have a look at The Untypical Podcaster Lab. I'll help you go from podcast brainwave to your very first episode in just two weeks, in a way that works for you. 

https://info.the-untypical-ot.co.uk/untypical-podcaster-lab

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you to this season’s sponsors:

Terri Wyse & Rachel Helm
They are offering EBSA support through webinars and workshops.

Upcoming Sessions:

•  📅 2nd September – Webinar for Parents & Families 
•  📅 16th September – Joint Workshop (Parents + Schools) 

Podcast listeners receive £5 off using this code UNTYPICALPARENT5.

• Parent/carer webinar
• Workshop

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Transcript

Copy

Welcome And Sponsor Support

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Untypical Parent Podcast. It's a podcast for parents in additional needs families. And I'm your host, Liz Evans. This is the place to find your reassurance that there is no such thing as a perfect parent. It's here to make the hard bits feel lighter and the good bits brighter. Just quickly before we get started, are you looking for practical ways to support a child experiencing school anxiety? This season I'm delighted to let you know that the Untypical Parent Podcast is sponsored by Terry Wise from Wise Inclusion and Rachel Helm from Helm Education Consultancy. They are experts in inclusive education and supporting children who struggle to access school. Together they run webinars and workshops to help parents and schools work together and improve outcomes for children experiencing emotionally based school anxiety. If you're supporting a child struggling with school attendance, check the link in the show notes to find out more about how Terry and Rachel can support you. Thanks for being here. Let's get started. Welcome

Meet Simon The Autistic Teacher

SPEAKER_00 1:05

back to the Untypical Parent Podcast. So today we've got a bit of an education slant on our podcast today. And I'm really delighted to have Simon come and join us today. And he's going to come and talk to us about being an autistic teacher. And Simon, are you in mainstream school?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I am, yes, I am in mainstream school.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

You're a mainstream school. So I've invited Simon on to the podcast because I'm really interested to know a bit about what it's like to be an autistic teacher and to get a real understanding of what an autistic teacher brings to the classroom that maybe non-autistic teachers may not have when we're working alongside neurodivergent additional needs children.

Neuroaffirming Beyond The Buzzword

SPEAKER_00 1:50

So, Simon, can we kick off with what does neuroaffirming mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

I think if I think back to sort of even like five years ago, I would never have heard of the word neuroaffirming at all. But now I think it's something that's used quite increasingly quite commonly within not just educational settings but quite a wide variety of settings. And it's how we accommodate through the environment in particular, environment and our approach to these groups of people and children to ensure that they are supported and they have the opportunities to succeed in their various settings.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah. Do you think the word neuroaffirming get gets used correctly, or do you think it's can commonly be misused or misunderstood?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Yeah, I think that you know, neuroaffirming, inclusion, send, those particular phrases, there's not enough of enough of a distinction between those particular phrases. Because I think that um, you know, you've got send as in, for example, you may have a speech and language um need.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

I mean, I am autistic myself, but I don't see myself as having send. I do have communication difficulties in terms of particularly in receptive understanding of what people are saying. But I find that neuroaffirming, some in some cases, people will say, Oh, we are neuroaffirming, this is what we do, etc. And it's almost that sort of glossy, you know, here's the poster, here's the whatever. But actually, for me, neuroaffirming is the the the value for me is in the practice, in the culture, in what you see in whatever building that you happen to be in at the time.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yeah, I think you're right. I think I I I hear that a lot. I you often see people say, I'm a neuroaffirming this or a neuroaffirming that. But actually, when you dig down a bit deeper, the understanding is not there. They the words being used, um, and you know, and then that makes it feel like a safe space for some people to be in. But actually, when you dig a little deeper, it like you say it's that glossy word of oh, I'm neuro-affirming, but what does that actually mean to people and and what's their understanding of it?

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Yeah, I think it's how you back it, you back it up. Yes. For example, you know, I was diagnosed last year, I was late diagnosed.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Um really recently.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

The last year I was diagnosed February last year. And originally I'd gone to my GP in 2022 to say that um I'd always had anxiety, but I always just put everything down to anxiety. But when it got to 2022, I thought it was a bit more than this. So I went to my GP and I told them that I had difficulties with um, you know, social interaction. Um, I found emotional regulation, emotional, even naming my emotions very difficult. And I started to explore that a bit further. And within 10 minutes, the doctor said to me, I'm going to refer you for an autism um assessment. And there I got the form, I had to tick all the um, it was literally 10 questions, I had to tick it all off. And I find that you know, for me, bringing that round to the neuroffirming conversation, it's things like in my workplace, for example, when I walk around with my ear defenders on, no one no one questions it, no one says, why are you walking around with your ear defenders on, or if I'm walking around with my um sunglasses on, people don't question it. And especially the children, you know, the children see me probably the most with sometimes I have my ear defenders on or I have my glasses on, or um, sometimes I've got a fidget. Um and it's just taken as something that's you know, sometimes it'll be like, you know, it's too loud or it's too noisy, or it's too bright, or it's uh I just need something to hold while I'm teaching because I'm not quite sure that I'm explaining it correctly. And it's those adaptions that you know I requested quite early on when I got my diagnosis. I'm very fortunate that the the setting that I'm working with, they you know, it's fully supportive. Um it's so much as so that you know, if if in the afternoon, for example, I need an extra additional break in the afternoon, then a member of senior leadership will come down and and relieve 10 to 15 minutes if I need it. I have to say it's quite rare that I need that time, but sometimes I just know it gets to sort of quarter past two, half past two, and right, I need I need 10 minutes just to decompress, just to sort of have a walk. Um go in the field. We have a field at the back of our school, so I'll go for a little walk in the field. And that's very reassuring that if I it's when I need it, it's there. So I think that is a really good example of not having the glossy posters, but it's backing it up with how it is for me in everyday life.

Practical Classroom Adaptations That Work

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah. That probably leads me on to my next question, actually, is is thinking about how how does how does being autistic, do you think, shape the kind of teacher that you are? Has it shaped the teacher that you are?

SPEAKER_01 7:44

When I got my diagnosis, it was very clear that I started to sort of track back into sort of my personal life and my professional life, and actually a lot of things began to make sense in the way that I did things because I it was always pointed out that for children who have um who are um neurodivergent or on their emerging neurodivergent journey, it was pointed out that I was really good with these children, and by that I mean, you know, how to support them, how to differentiate, how to adapt, etc. And I just thought that well, everyone must do that, everyone must um, you know, make those adaptations for those children. But you know, people increasing now will say, um, how did you know to give that child, you know, that vision that extra visual? Well, I said, Well, I can just see that child is in a state of task paralysis, for example, they don't know how to start on the task, even though the child's giving the impression that they're listening, they're they're paying attention, but actually you can see when they've moved from say the carpet to the uh table, you can just sense that they're not quite sure of what to do. And sometimes they don't sometimes children don't always have the confidence to say, you know, I don't know, I don't understand, or it manifests itself in that sort of escalated behavior in terms of um they might just not physically pick up the pencil to start writing, or they might not um have their book open, and we forget sometimes that I found increasing now once I start breaking everything down into very sort of minute chunks, so you know, um number one, go to your table, number two, get your blue book, which is your maths book. Number three, you're going to open it at the clip where I've put it in to make sure that you're not flicking through 20 pages until you get to the right.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

That's a good idea, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yeah. Because I found, you know, I could see children, they were turning one page at a time, and I was like, well, why don't you just flick it open to the to the middle? And then I thought, well, actually, you don't know where the middle the middle is. So it's that visual marker you just put in so that they um they know where to go. And I found that it's almost the strategies I was putting in place for the children before my diagnosis were actually more almost for my benefit as well for the children's uh benefit. Because I find that like visual timetable, which I think sometimes that's a given that people have those, but it's making sure that it gets used and you know, you pull it off when it's done. That probably helps me as well as the children that I can see what's visually happening um during the day. And yeah, it's almost that the strategies like, you know, I'm sitting at my desk at the moment because my Friday is my um my consultancy day, so I'm at home, I'm working on my business stuff at home. You know, my desk at the moment is it's quite chaotic in terms of how it looks, which is actually more I think I've got a few ADHD traits going on there. And interestingly, I'm gonna I'm undergoing ADHD um at the moment, and you know, if I look at my desk, I can see that you know everything's where I think it needs to be, and I know where everything is in order to get it. But sometimes I think, you know, if someone, you know, someone came round, I'd be quickly tidy it all up to make sure it looks the other person that I know what I'm doing. But it's almost sort of like chaotic stuff, which I know it gets done in the way that I need to get it done, but I find that the strategies that help me the most almost translate into ones that children latch onto.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And what a great kind of you know using the word role model, but you know, for them to have this positive connection with adaptations that it's it's okay for things to be adapted to to support you. And you know, often I think we as as parents or as teachers or adults working with children, we often present as this is we've got it all together, we're all perfect, we've got it all together, we've got it all now. And like you're saying, we get diagnoses, don't diagnosis late in life. And I love the fact that you know your desk is chaotic, so is mine. Um that I love the fact that you know where stuff is on yours. I don't. Mine's very messy, and I've never I've always lost something. Um, but I suppose you know, for those kids to be able to see an adult going, you know, I need some support, and that's really okay. That it then gives those kids confidence to go forward in their life and go, well, actually, these are the bits that I need. And and that's not an it's not an unusual thing to need some kind of adaptations to support you to do the things that you need to do.

Soft Starts And Lowering Morning Load

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, it's almost like you're running two different types of curriculum, which merge you know, you've got your academic curriculum that you have to, your English, your maths, or whatever. But it's almost like the sort of the pastoral side, the big behaviour support side goes sort of alongside that because you know, you don't know, for example, in the morning how the children are going to come in in the morning. Children come in and you might see a child upset or child's just not quite themselves. And I think it's being that having that you know, that open-endedness in terms of right, something's not quite right, let's try and see what it is. You know, sometimes children don't want to talk about what it is, they just need that space in order to be able to process what it is that's going on. So it's giving those children those sort of options that you know in the morning. I mean, I personally don't do like early morning work, I do like I call it a soft start where it's um you know it's drawings, colouring, um, it's a bit of play-based stuff. Um, and I find that that I've used that with multiple year groups, and you know, even the older children prefer stuff like that. Because the because you know, when you come in, you know, for me, the the last thing you want to be bombarded with is you know, handwriting, phonics, maths, etc. You want to be able to come in, you know, you've got all your stuff. For some children, it's knowing where to put all that stuff because you've got like your bag, your coach, your water bottle, your um book bag, trying to keep hold of where to put all of those things. You know, sometimes, you know, I have children that have like a checklist of those things and where to put them, and they tick it all off um as they go in because that's too much to hold in their short-term memory, and it's you know, the start of the day in particular, you know, that's quite a minefield for some for suck for quite a lot of us, yeah. In terms of, you know, for me going from a quiet classroom where everything's set, ready to go, we've got all the children coming in, and they obviously want to tell you stuff, they want to talk you, they want to show you stuff, and you know, I go with it because it's for the children, and that's what they want.

Masking Autistic Tired And Burnout

SPEAKER_01 14:59

And but sometimes you think, you know, it gets to the end of the day, and there's almost this teacher teacher tired, but there's also autistic tired as well. Like you've gone through the day of teaching, interacting, um, you're having to deal with sometimes uh routine changes during the day where you know, let's say an assembly has had to be moved because of something else that's happened.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Um I mean, I probably give the impression that I probably roll with it, which I probably on the whole do. But then I get to the end of the day and I think actually, you know, I'm tired. I've I've managed all this stuff during the day. And in a way, I'm quite grateful that I have my commute's quite a long one. It's about an hour, about an hour and a quarter each way each way. Yeah. And actually, going on the public transport, I could just put my headphones on and I could just decompress for from the day because I think what some people won't notice is, you know, on the face of it, it's fine, but inside it's like I'm having to have dealt with all of these different things. And I get home, I mean, I live by I live by myself, and you know, I get home, I have my routine at home. My that my routine is very quite rigid at home where I come in, the bag is on the floor, and then food straight on, flop out on the sofa with with my um bottle of water, and I just take that time just to, you know, give myself that permission that I can just sort of, you know, decompress from the day. Because I wasn't doing that before. I wasn't, I was just coming home, bringing school stuff home with me and doing work in the evening, whilst now it's no, no, no, we leave it, we leave it there.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yeah. And I suppose that kind of I I thought to think about, you know, burnout in teachers. Um, and that's all kinds of, you know, neurotypes uh in teachers. The burnout rate is is quite high in teachers. And I suppose how how you talked a little bit about that, but how how do you manage that as as because it sounds like some of that if you did people might think that you're rolling with it, but actually that's probably masking.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Um I think with masking, you know, when I heard the term masking and what it was and how it is, I thought, yeah, yeah, that's that's exactly how it is. That's how it is. Because you think that, you know, when I go to a meeting, you know, when you have a you know, briefing staff meeting, you have um, you know, meeting with parents, carers, trainers, whoever comes to visit, you know. Once I know what's going on, what what the meet purpose of the meeting is, that gives me a lot of security in the fact that I don't like particularly being ambushed at the last minute because it I it I have to then buy myself some processing time because if someone's asking you something, say at home time or you know, first thing in the morning, I have to try and think quite quickly when actually what I'm screaming out for is like I want to say, just give me a minute while I just think about it, which I'd probably do more than I used to do. And I think that there has been times, you know, in in previous um teaching roles that I have, because I I'm presently I'm a supply teacher, and there's been present uh past long roles that I've done, and it's got to a point where I felt tired, but I didn't realise why I was tired, you know, more tired than normal.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

You know, I went to the doctor and I said to the doctor, I'm just feeling really tired, I feel worn out, and they've put it down to s you know, like stress of the job or but actually looking back on it now, it wasn't it wasn't just that. It was the fact that, you know, people who are autistic, they they and other neurotypes is you have that burnout, you have that physical sort of like, you know, I can only describe it as, you know, it it's tired but extreme tiredness, like you feel exhausted and you're overthinking like what you've done during the day and you've you've thought like, you know, in a meeting, for example, like, you know, what you want to do is get up and move aroove move around during the meeting, you don't want to sit there. We're quite luckily in, you know, in you know, it's funny when I do training, you know, one of the first things I do say to people is when we do the ground almost the ground rules, I always say, you know, if you need a fidget, go and get one from the go and get one from the side or go to the toilet when you go to the toilet when you need to, because that's quite a luxury to being able to go into the toilet or no, if you need to go up and walk around, you get up and walk uh walk around. I'm not I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

It's almost giving it's giving people that permission, isn't it? Um and and we wait for that permission a lot of the time. We feel that we should sit and we should be still and we should you know toe the line and and be perfect, but actually we it's like you say, sometimes we need the permission to to do things a slightly differently.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah, and the I find that you know when I do those things, when I engage in those things, that you know, I think at one point, right, I do want to get up and walk around, or I just want to sit by myself for a little bit. It's like at lunchtime. I always go out for a walk at walk at lunchtime, you know. I always walk down to the shop to get my lunch. Sometimes I go sit in the park and eat lunch, or sometimes I just um sort of sit in my little at we have we were very fortunate that uh our classroom has a separate outside area. Sometimes I just go and sit in, sit there. I find that physical sort of like it's almost like a marker like, okay, I'm leaving the building now, leave it, leave everything there, get lunch, then have the time for yourself, sit and scroll on your phone, switch off from everything. Um I find that lunch represents sort of like the halfway point during the day. Okay. You've gone through you've done all the morning stuff, then you've got a chance to reset, and then you've got the afternoon, um, and then it's that bit after school where you know I do my marking, planning, and I do all my other bits that I need to do. In a way, because there's no one else in the room at that time, it's actually quite satisfying that you know I've got a chance to see, right, this is what we've achieved today, this is what I need to do for tomorrow. But at the same time, it's my it's my downtime. My downtime to think, right, I can just step back for a little bit, take a take stock of what's happened today after school. Sometimes I'll stay for an hour, sometimes I'll stay for two hours or whatever after school, getting my stuff done. I'm in control of that time and how I and how I

Partnering With Parents Using Better Language

SPEAKER_01 21:42

use it.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

And when I think about parents, and you know, you must you're working alongside parents because teachers aren't just teachers to the kids, are they? But it's almost like a team approach. Both my parents are ex teachers. So I think I I've been well schooled in teaching um and also diverted away from teaching because I didn't Want to be a teacher and they both said, don't do it. Um But you know, you that it is a team approach and you will be working alongside parents. Do you find that being autistic yourself helps that that that team working with parents? Because but especially handing around your neurodivergent kids.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

I think that you know being neurodivergent, it probably for me gives it gives me something, it's given me almost a different renewed viewpoint in how I Yes in how I do things. You know, um previously I would have said that you know children who are neurodivergent send behaviour even behaviour, it would be that point of going to the parent and talking about, oh, this has happened with the behaviour today. Well, actually, when I think about it now, if something has happened in terms of, let's say, distressed behaviour, I could prefer to call it distressed rather than challenging behaviour, there's always something behind it I always find now because I would have like you know, ten years ago I would have you would have I would have said, um, I would have gone down the road of like, you know, kicking off that child's been kicking off today, that child's done this, that, and the other. Well, actually, I can see if a child is finding it tricky during the day and you can see that sort of maybe unsettled behaviour, you can see that sort of um disengaged behaviour. I now think, right, this is if it's disengaged right, is the task pitched correctly? Does the child have enough there? And I can it's having the confidence now to say, you know, particularly when I have those sort of parents' evenings meetings with them, parents are saying, particularly with things like homework, you know, I've they might find it hard to engage church children with their homework, and then I can confidently say, you know, I've tried this, this works, uh, I will show you how to do it, and then here you go and have a go at it to yourself. So it's almost it's given me the tools in which to aid the parents more, and to give parents additional tools to work with their children on, or I'll just free-flow the ideas, I'll say the phrase, these are my initial thoughts. Uh, I will go away and think about and come back to you tomorrow. And I always do come back tomorrow because the the trust and connection you have with the parents and carers is equally as important as the trust and connection you have with the children.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah, it really is. And it was really interesting as well the way you phrased the behaviour because uh you know it's really difficult for parents when maybe you've got a child that's struggling at school and you're constantly being called, or and the kind of terminology around their behaviour becomes like you say they've been kicking off, challenging, they're all really negative connotations to the behaviour. Now, the behaviour might be the behaviour that we're not we don't particularly want to see, and it is causing the child distress, other people distress, but actually by naming the behaviour like you're saying and calling them distressed behaviour, because that's what it is, the child's distressed by something, um, must for parents is much more helpful than you know, we've had bad behaviour, or they've been misbehaving, or challenging behaviour. Actually, you're describing the behaviour that you're actually seeing, which is distressed, or they're disengaged, or you know, rather than they're ignoring me, they're actually disengaged. And that change in language must be so much more useful for parents.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

You know what? That was the probably the single most important shift when I was a permanent teacher all the way up to 2021, and then I went on supply teaching in September 2021, and I took that opportunity in that summer break to really do some sort of reading around uh behaviour in particular.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

And um there's one particular behaviour.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

I don't know whether I would call it an approach or reading, but um can I name drop the can I name drop the person?

SPEAKER_00 26:18

You can name drop, name-drop away, Simon.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah, so Jen Foster is the person that um I saw something of hers in 2021 called uh revolutionised behaviour and it went it probably was the stuff I should have had in teacher training where you know she broke everything down into you know, if a child, for example, is uh moving around on the carpet, they're not doing it to be uh to misbehave, they're moving around on the carpet because they have a need in terms of they need to move around, they need to um get up and do something. And when I shifted from seeing that, as you said, you know, the misbehaviour, the bad behaviour, whatever, to seeing it as need, that really opened my eyes into you know how I support the behaviour rather than manage the behaviour. Because if I can see a child, if I can see a child moving around, it means they need to get up and go for a walk, or they need to uh, you know, maybe give the books the you know, give the books out, or a child might say, I need to go to the toilet. Well, actually, you know, if we read into that, child actually will probably need to go to the toilet, but actually want to walk to the toilet at the same time, which is giving them that movement that they they so need. You can see now that it's almost that child development and that sort of brain stuff, I'm gonna call it the stuff we find out about the brain, or um, you know, the when I sort of did the reading about, you know, the the amygdala, the c the prefrontal cortex, the hippocampus, all of those bits, I was quite taken aback when the you know, when the threat comes, your amygdala's going off, which raises the cortisol, the stress levels, and it's exhibited by that running away, you know, that the hitting, whatever. It's going behind that to see, well, actually, what's what's caused it, what's caused that uh to happen.

De-Escalation And Putting Safety First

SPEAKER_01 28:18

You know, when I sat next to a child once and just didn't say anything, that child almost de-escalated really, really quickly. And I was like, oh my goodness, you know, what I've read in the book really does work because I now know that when I'm when I'm calm and quiet and regulated myself, the child sees it, you know, it could be an 11-year-old, they'll see it and think, well, he's not getting cross, he's not getting um upset, he's just sitting there. Why is he just sitting there? You know, I might just sit there and play with like a fidget tool, and I see that you know, that that mindset, that sort of like that change in change is is being really powerful to see it in practice, to see that you know, there's a different way of doing it. Well, actually, it's is it a different way? Is it the right way? Is it it's probably comes down to need and support. You'll you're seeing the behaviour, that's the visible bit. But underlying that, I mean, we talk about, you know, I think icebergs, you know, icebergs, we see the behaviour, yeah, but then feeling the need is underneath the icebergs, you don't know how they're feeling, you don't know what they need until they demonstrate that to you or maybe point to it on a chart because you know when we're de-escalated or dysregulated, verbally, you know, everything goes because we're in that moment of dysregulation. You know, the last thing you want to do is have a conversation about this, that, and the other because you the the priority has to be safety and calm. But uh definitely moving towards all of that was powerful, and I think I it's a hard thing to get your head around because it's always like you've got the way the traditional ways of of of behaviour management, and when you talk about supporting it rather than managing it, it's you have to go in quite a lot of depth, I think, about what it is. But when people see it in action, that's when people start thinking, yeah, all right, all right, I can see what it's talking about.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think parents listening to this, you know, we we have quite a lot of teachers tune in and listen, but we also have majority of them parents, and actually, you know, for me that's really helped as a parent is is changing that language around behaviour. And a lot of that's come from my learning, and a bit like you, you know, I did a lot of learning in my younger years as an OT, you know, and I worked in you know special schools for kids that were unable to attend scope attend scope uh attend mainstream school because of their behaviours. And a lot of those kids, there were safety issues, you know, of very high stress levels, and they were those kids as well that you know you couldn't talk, you could talk through with them and go, now in these situations, what would you do? And they'd name you perfectly what we have what they should do, but in the moment couldn't do it. And when I started to learn more about the brain and knowing that actually that part of the brain was going offline for them, they couldn't access that lovely bit of reasoning and thought process of oh, I just need to do this, this, and this. They were just reacting in a way to keep themselves safe. That that really helped me in my work, but then also helped me with you know how I parent my own kids is very much looking at behaviour as a message and you know what what support do they need, and trying to take the personal side out of it as well. Because sometimes it can feel very personal, the behaviours if they're directed towards you as the adult trying to support, and sometimes that just that change in terminology that that can really help with that and and change your your approach to things.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Found that it benefited myself because I found myself having not meltdowns, but I call them shutdowns. Like I I'd be like out with people and I completely gone went sometimes go non-verbal and I couldn't make sense of what was happening, and they were trying to sort of reassure me and trying to do stuff, and I just couldn't get my head around why I'd be quite happily talking away and whatever, and then I'd just be like absolute shutdown, and you know, I'd get upset because I'd because I didn't I was worried that I couldn't explain it or what the other person was um thinking. But I just think now that those things when I do have those moments, it's it's self-advocating for yourself for me, because sometimes I'll be like, you know, sometimes I need to leave it, you know, I need to leave as soon as the kids have gone. I need to know and people are fine with it, you know. But if you need to go, you need to go, and that's it. That's it. There's no question asked about it. Um but yeah, definitely sort of understanding more about behaviour, what it is, how it works, what to do. And learning that sort of like doing nothing sometimes in terms of like not getting all your tricks and things out for them. Yes. You don't always have to do that. Just you know, the I think the child in this case needs to know that you're a trusted adult, you connect, you understand, you're with them, you're present with them, and there's no rush because that I don't know how I don't know if there's a figure with this, but you know, that moment of being dysregulated to then not being dysregulated to being regulated, the window between those two things, it could be quite a long time, couldn't it? In terms of Absolutely, yeah. So you have to be with them and almost you have to ride it out with them. And that lesson that you know, trying to push through with the curriculum whilst you've got dysregulated child. Sometimes the curriculum does have to become secondary to the child's safety and regulation. I think it's as simple as that.

SEND Reform And The White Paper Letdown

SPEAKER_00 34:10

I think that kind of leads me on again to the next bit that I was gonna just chat you in the last kind of bit for the for the podcast is thinking about that there's a lot going on at the moment with regards to education and the white paper that's out. You know, I'll I'll ask you uh very sarcastically here, Simon, of you know, just a small question of you know what where is it going wrong? Where is education going wrong at the moment for these for child? I think children in general, because I speak to people that have got neurotypical kids and their kids are struggling. I've got a neurotypical son um and he's finding education difficult. He's had really bad ups and downs and how he's felt about things and the stresses and the way that that that education is delivered now. You know, with your magic wand, Simon, you know, where where's where do you think things are going wrong with education at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 35:09

I mean, I think, you know, if you look at a job as a if I talk about my job as a teacher, you know, a teacher's job is to plan, teach, and assess. That sounds quite really when he puts it like that. But when you add in your supporting behaviour, you are meeting with other people, you are supporting parents, carers, you are having to do statutory things such as, you know, um uh testing, for example. And I think for me, when the government said that they were going to sort out, you know, look at the SEN stuff in particular and come out with the white paper, I thought, okay, this is a good chance for things to um things to change and to become neuro-affirming. And I'm really disappointed that, you know, what I read and what I saw, you know, it was sort of built up as this really, no, we're going to do all this stuff for our century and whatever. And I was taken aback with how how um it fell way below my expectations in terms of what it was. I just think, you know, a child who has an EHCP, you know, their EHCP is a legal document and it's there for it's individualised, personalised support for that child. And for me, when I pick up an EHCP and I read through it, I thought, right, this is what we have to do. These are the stuff that children have to do, and that seems straightforward. I think the waters for me have been muddied quite a lot now with the introduction, you know, ISPs and almost the it's almost the process seems more complicated, and I think for me ultimately the children lose out in terms of things. And I think that if we were to go to um particularly people with lived experience, we would tell you how it was for us as children. You know, I probably had an okay school school life, but actually now I know that I didn't have the perfect school life as a child. It was hard, it was hard work because of being um being autistic. So I'd almost think like that neuro all the stuff that we know is neuroaffirming and it works for children. I think all those inclusive approaches don't just work for the um neurodivergent children, it works for everybody. No, you know, like you could have a neurotypical child walk in in the morning, they could be having a bad day. And so do we deny those children the stuff that we have for the neurodivergent children? You know, if a neurotypical child wants a fidget, for example, for me they're gonna have a fidget to help them with anxiety, you know. Uh I have a you know, there's one story that I have which has always stood out for me. I had a I had a child years ago who came into school, child was very upset, child didn't have a diagnosis, and they were very upset, and they were able to check in that they felt sad. And when I started to sort of strip back why they were upset, they were really worried that um the cats that they had hadn't been fed in the morning, and mum was in a rush and they were in a rush to get out get out to uh work, to get to school and whatever. So I phoned the mum up and said this is what was happening, and the the parent on the phone luckily was working at home on that particular day, and so she went down and fed the cat because she wanted the child, her child to be reassured that that almost routine-led bit they left the house is cat got fed, and it just shows that when things are not routine-led or things aren't fixed or things happen, like understandably, you know, if mum's in a rush in the morning to do this, that, and the other, because mum's got to do this and that, and whatever. But that's really stuck with me that something it could be seen as quite trivial in terms of like the kids being fed, but for a child, it was part of their routine in the morning, and I think it's paying attention to the signals that the children give to us. And I'll admit it's not easy when you've got th when you've got 30 children, and essentially each one of those 30 children would have things, or you know, the percentage of children being neurodivergent or emerging neurodivergent could be a high percentage. But I think it's keeping with you the it's almost right, these are the children. What's gonna work, what's gonna keep them safe, what's gonna allow them to thrush to th thrive and flourish. I suppose for me, it's having as soon as they walk through the door, the connection and the safety and the trust the adult provides, when they come into class, it's when the teaching that you do with them, how do you adapt that to ensure that all children have the opportunity to succeed? And yeah, as I said, it's it's difficult, it's hard, but you do it, we do it with the best intentions, I think.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah,

Why Inclusive Tools Help All Children

SPEAKER_00 40:40

yeah. And I think that's what's really important for me is that I don't think I've ever come across a teacher that hasn't wanted to do the best by their classes in all the work that I've done, both as a parent, but also as a professional as an OT. Um and I think what sometimes can happen is that parents and and schools sometimes almost get set against each other when actually the issue is is is bigger than both of them, where they're both trying to do what they can in a in a really difficult situation. And like you, I was really hopeful that the white paper might bring some solution to that. And it talks about oh, it was what's the wording they use, but basically trying to adversarial, wasn't it? Was trying to reduce it and make it less adversarial. And I was thinking that would how ideal would that be? I mean, it'd be but that we all want that. No parent wants to be in an adversarial relationship with the local authority or with the school, and and and vice versa. The school don't want that with the parents, but almost this system can create that difficulty between parents and schools, and it's so important, I think, you know, to that schools and parents join forces together, they're a much louder voice, um, and actually are both trying to get the best for those children and say I I've I've never come across a teacher that doesn't want the best for their kids that they they work for, but sometimes they're just stuck in the systems, they don't have the knowledge, they don't have the experience, they don't have the backup and the support that they might need to be able to do that. Um, and I suppose like you, I was quite disappointed by the white paper and and what that that is going to bring, I think, for parents and and the additional load on schools.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Yeah, I think that's one of the big things that's come out in the you know, when I read through particularly, you know, Department of Education, like social media posts, for example, there's a lot mentioned about parents and children and whatever, but there's very little mention of teachers and staff, and um if they it in effect, what it is, there's additional workload there. So it to me it just like it's added onto the send paperwork that happens already.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Yeah, yeah. So and I think we will wrap it up there. Thank you ever so much for coming on to talk to us about kind of the education side of things. It's really interesting to get a teacher's side of things, but also an autistic teacher's side of things as well. And you know, I think the class that you have are very lucky to have you when they work with you, um, especially those neurodivergent kids, you know, and showing them how life can be as a grown-up and how we can ask for you know adaptations and that's okay, and and and how we support ourselves and and you know what an advocate for that you are. So thank you ever so much for coming on to the podcast.

Simon’s Consultancy And How To Find Him

SPEAKER_00 43:32

I will leave all your contact details because you, as you said, you do have your own company. Do you just just to finish off, do you want to say a little bit about what you do as part of your private work?

SPEAKER_01 43:43

So I set myself up uh last year as um an autistic teacher and consultant. So at present I deliver training to local authorities, schools, um, I've been to parent groups, um, I've done some work for the National Autistic Society as well. But um I'm it's not limited to autism. Um I've done stuff on ADHD, PDA, um, dyslexia. So if you're a setting group, etc., in need of some training or advocacy, even my the best way to probably get in touch is via Instagram, which is um at Neuroaffirming with Simon. Or um I have a website which is www.neuroffirmingwithsimon.com. So they're the best two ways of getting in touch.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Perfect. And I will put those links in the show notes. And I'll also put a link for your shout out for Jen Foster as well. We'll put her in there as well. Um, because I know she's got some fabulous stuff that would be probably very interesting for people. So I'll put that in as well. So just leave me to say thank you ever so much for joining me and um take care.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Thanks very much, Liz. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

You're welcome.