Parenting Stress & Burnout: How to Step Back From the Edge with Dr Lee David

What if the smallest straw isn’t the cause of your collapse, but the clue you’ve been carrying too much for too long? We sit down with Dr Lee David, GP, CBT therapist, author, and host of The Choice Space, to make stress understandable, visible, and workable for real families navigating complex lives.

We start by ditching the myth of the perfect parent and unpack why children need different versions of us. From there, Lee maps the physiology and psychology of stress: the stress bucket that fills with daily demands, and the burnout cliff that sneaks up when we keep pushing past our limits. You’ll hear how fight, flight, freeze, and even fawn show up in kitchens, school emails, and tense bedtime routines. We draw a clear line between energising, values-led pressure and the draining strain of immovable systems, think tribunals, slow services, and endless forms, and why “pleasant persistence” can protect your health without giving up your voice.

The heart of the conversation tackles inner beliefs that magnify stress. We explore sensitivity that makes a child’s anxiety echo in your body, the inner critic that turns every misstep into a verdict, and the slide from useful guilt into corrosive shame. With insights from Brené Brown and Kristin Neff, Lee offers a fierce form of self-compassion: boundaries, pauses, and choices that prioritise well-being so you can stay connected at home and effective with professionals. We also reframe self-care as shared family care and stack practical micro-tools you can use today, even on the busiest weeks.

Lee talks about SPICE, her five-part framework: Success (small wins), Physical (gentle movement), Important (values-first tasks), Connection (micro-moments that bond), and Enjoyable (simple pleasures that help you exhale). No lofty routines, just realistic, repeatable practices designed for parents managing neurodivergent and neurotypical needs, tight schedules, and high stakes. If you’ve felt “stressy,” close to the edge, or unsure how to help your nervous system settle when the system won’t budge, this conversation offers language, tools, and real hope.

If this helped, follow the show, share it with a friend who’s carrying too much, and leave a review so more parents can find these tools. Your story might be the light someone else needs.

If you want to connect with Lee you can find her here:

Dr Lee David - Instagram

The Choice Space Podcast - Instagram

In this episode Lee and I spoke about: 

Kirsten Neff - https://self-compassion.org/

Dr Richard Duggins 

Brene Brown - https://brenebrown.com/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Untypical Parent Podcast. Today I have got with me the lovely Dr. Lee David. Thank you ever so much for joining me today, Lee. Hi, I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for being with us. We're going to have a bit of a conversation today about stress. But I think what I always start off with, Lee, is I always ask everyone that comes onto the podcast first, are you the perfect parent? Because I know you are a parent, but are

Are You A Perfect Parent

SPEAKER_00 0:31

you a perfect parent?

SPEAKER_01 0:33

I am a parent, and I would 100% say I'm not a perfect parent. I don't think I've ever met anyone who was. I don't even know what it would mean to be a perfect parent, really. I really see us all as just muddling through as best we can, doing our absolute best with a mixture of our personality traits, our our lived experience in our own families, and then the complexity of our children with the personalities that we I certainly couldn't predict the personalities of my children. And I think I've learned as much from them in the parenting journey as much as I thought when I started out, I thought, oh, I this is how you're supposed to do it. And the the longer I am a parent, I've now got older teens, I realized that actually it's really a journey about learning, and it's a constant changing journey as well. The playing fields is they they evolve, they grow, they have different needs, and you just think you've got it, and then suddenly all changes again, and you have got no clue how to respond. So I think being a parent is about most of the time not really knowing what you're doing and actually just finding a way that's workable for you as a family.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

I was listening to someone talk the other, and being typical with kind of my dyslexic brain, I think, I can't actually remember who said it. Um, but they were talking about you can't, you're not, you're never the same parent to your children. Is somebody really famous? I can't remember who. And actually, even though we don't, well we do change, but we think we we parent our kids in the same way, we don't. We are a different parent to our children, which that fascinates me in a family that actually

Adapting Parenting To Each Child

SPEAKER_00 2:09

you might think you're delivering or being a per the same parent, we're going to treat our children exactly the same, but we don't. And kind of do you get that sense? You nut could you can you identify and see that that you're you parent in a different way according to your children?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yes, I think that's absolutely true, and it can bring really strengths because we adapt, because everyone's an individual, and so none of us want to be treated exactly the same way as everybody else, because we all have different likes, we have different interests, we have, you know, some of us like quiet, some of us like noise. So if we treated everyone the same, then well, probably everyone would would end up with a with it, it wouldn't work. Um, I think it can sometimes be more challenging when we might have somebody whose needs it's easier to meet, so we're more naturally inclined. The way our style, our personality style, may it just might be more straightforward with one of our children than another because just with the way we all are, it doesn't mean we can't learn that. But I think acknowledging actually um we're perhaps we're very similar, we're both quite fiery and intense, or or perhaps we're opposites. One of us really likes quiet, and and I'm quite fiery and intense. And so there can be a challenge in how to adjust to that. And I again I don't think it's wrong, and I think we can have these amazing relationships. I just think we need to stay aware and and and and notice what's happening and how the relationship's working out.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah. Lee, what's your what's your background? Because I've I've introduced you as Dr. Lee David. What is your background?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yeah, so I am a GP by background, um, but I'm now a mental health-specific GP, so I'm no longer a generalist GP. Um, I just work supporting people with mental health uh problems, and also I'm a CBT therapist, so I offer cognitive behavioural therapy and trauma therapy to people on a one-to-one basis. Uh, and I also do a bit of authoring, so I've written several books about well-being

Lee’s Background In Mental Health And CBT

SPEAKER_01 4:02

for teens and also for adults and for health professionals who might be struggling with their own uh well-being. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

And when you I'm just thinking back to kind of when you were a GP, were you did you come a lot across a lot of parents then that would come in with maybe struggling with their mental health, struggling with stress and overwhelm around their parenting, or has is that not been so obvious? I'm really interested whether parents are actually going to seek help for stuff and not being able to find it, or whether actually parents are just doing this, well, that's what parenting is, so they're not even talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

I think there's a mix,

Hidden Load Of Parenting Stress

SPEAKER_01 4:40

but I certainly would see, I think as GPs, we we would see a lot of families and we would see people through quite a long period of time. So you often develop a relationship with someone over a period of time, and that means that you do know about their family circumstances, and you might be seeing more than one member of that family so that you know that um maybe somebody's struggling with one area, and then you might see another family member, and and and so you're aware of those relationships. So I think definitely there is a one awareness, and I I know a lot of the people that I see as parents. At the moment, my main clinical role is I work with health professionals who are struggling with their own mental health. And again, family dynamics are hugely significant. I have a quite a number of parents on my caseload where the main challenge that they're experiencing in life is is around parenting journeys for for lots of complex reasons.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah. And I think it's often overlooked that, isn't it? I think when we look at people when they may be burn out from work or whatever it might be, that people presume that it's just the work stuff. And it can be, but actually, when you think of the workforce in this country and how many of them are parents, it stands to reason there's gonna be the stresses that come from being a parent, and whether that's a parent in a neurodivergent family, additional needs family, or whether in a neurotypical family, those pressures and stresses and strains will come, and I think what I was I'm interested in is that now I think our kids are getting a language around regulation, stress, well-being. But there's a there's a proportion of us, probably similar age to Ross Lee, that that wasn't taught in our in our lifetime at school. You know, it that's but very much more a new thing that's being delivered, and um, you know, the kids are being supported to learn about. And I think there's this group of parents out there that are we know the stresses and strains have increased on parents over the years, with for whatever reason. We've moved very much away from that, you know, just dad stereotypically working and mum being at home with the kids to now most family are have got two parents, if there are two parents working. Um, if you're a solo parent like me anyway, we're working as well. Um that the stresses and strains are have grown for parents possibly in different ways than they were, say, 20, 25, 30 years ago. And I suppose I I that's the why the I do the work that I do is around these parents that I'm and trying to support them with their mental health. And it's interesting that you're coming across them as well within the kind of workplace as well, and how we support them. And we were going to talk today a bit about stress because stress for me is one of those things that I think people just kind of throw out, you know, I'm stressed, or that's stressful, or that's a bit str or you're being a bit like my kids used to say, you're being really stressy. And I don't know what they mean. I'm a picture of calmness at all points. Um but I'm just interested, what do you kind of what what is stressly?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

What is it? Yeah, so I think there's a real there's a line, I see it,

What Stress Is And The Bucket

SPEAKER_01 7:43

where stress is is uh an event that's quite a short-term experience, but it can build up if it's repeated over and I think the impact of a short-term period of stress, so stress can be quite motivating. It's it's often a sign, I view it as a sign that something's happening that's important. And so we bring our awareness to it. So we get heightened, um, our threat system starts to become switched on to say there's something here that's a challenge that I need to deal with. Um, so we might start to get quite activated, we we start putting our focus of attention on it. Um, and you can think of it, I've heard about the stress bucket, um, which I'm sure should be attributable to someone, but I don't know who it is. Um, but it's this idea that we have lots of stressors in our life, lots of things that trigger stress that make us go, oh, I've got to do that, oh, I've got to do that, I've got to do this as well. And and so the more things that go in the bucket, eventually that bucket can start to overspill if we're not taking them out regularly as well. So if they're just building up, then the bucket gets heavier and heavier, and eventually they start spilling out. And I think when we're walking around with a bucket that's constantly overflowing or we're tripping over all those stresses, and and we can't really that's almost when we're becoming burnt out, it's just overwhelmed with, and so we almost want to put the bucket down and give up. We we stop. So stress you can look at as a coping response. It's something that we do quite actively to try and deal with the stresses in life, the pressures of life. And so if you think about the fight, flight-freeze response, we might get irritable when we're under stress. Um, we might, so that's a fight. Um, we might try and avoid stuff that stresses us, which can help to a degree, but then if we avoid stuff that's really important, then it all builds up and we actually feel worse in the long term. So it's it's not necessarily helpful to do that. So that's the flight, just run away from it. And the freeze, if it's a very big stress, then we might feel frozen. We just feel, I don't know how to deal with this, I just feel I'm gonna blank out, I'm just overwhelmed. It's that moment of overwhelm where we're just like there's a space and I don't know what to say or do. I think there's another one that we sometimes do when we're stressed, which is fawn, which is try to make people like us, try to fit in. And we've talked a bit about this previously, haven't we, Liz? About masking. And I think that comes into that, and and I do see that as well. But if we think about just all of the different pressures that build up in that bucket, and some of them are going to be bigger, some of them are gonna be little, some of them are gonna be big. But I think what happens is um, and I've there's a there's a thing called the burnout cliff in in a book called Um Burnout Free Working by Richard Duggins, who's a colleague of mine at Practitioner Health, and and he's a psychiatrist very experienced at working with burnout, and he talks about the burnout cliff, which I think is really helpful, which is this idea that we we walk closer and closer and closer to the edge, but often we just ignore how we're feeling for such a long time. So we feel stressed, but we just push it down and carry on. We feel stressed again and just push it down and ignore it. We get irritable, but

The Burnout Cliff And Small Triggers

SPEAKER_01 10:41

we oh just keep going, just keep going. And so we get closer and closer and closer to the edge of the cliff when basically it becomes much harder. Once you fall off that cliff, we get overwhelmed, it's harder to function, we probably need support from um you know mental health services to fully recover or from people like yourself. We we need input, we can't then easily redress it without more significant support. And it's often something very, very small. So if you think about that bucket, it's just the final tiny little piece of gravel that drops in that bucket, and then all of a sudden we're off the edge of the cliff, and you can't believe that it's that one thing because actually it's not that big a deal, but it's all those other things chronically adding up that contribute.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Not mine was, it was cooking the dinner, and I think I I mean we've been through tribunal and all sorts you know, all sorts of stuff where and my son had been in huge amounts of crisis, you know, my health wasn't great anymore, my physical health wasn't great, probably all attributed as well. And it was I went to cook the dinner one night, and something wasn't there that I needed, and that's what tipped me over the edge. That was me completely off the edge, down the cliff, and into burnout. And it's like you say, sometimes it's just the most tiniest thing. If someone said to me, you know, how why did you burn out? Oh, with cooking dinner, you'd think, What? But like you say, it's everything else that's built up, and as you're climbing up that mountain with it and ignoring it and ignoring it, ignoring it, you know, then we get very close to the edge. And I talk a lot as well about flirt around the edges of burnout now, in much better control. It's knowing what it looks like and what it feels like, and and having my strategies in place and know what works for me. But there are still times when life takes over and I can't always stop myself and I'm just by the edge, and then I can bring myself back from it. Um, but it's quite a nice visual that actually, the cliff. It is not a visual, but a useful visual.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

It's really helpful, and it kind of gives permission to then something small, why that's why such a big deal. I also think the idea about you know, all the things we're putting in that bucket are really helpful, and you can think about I sometimes get people to think about, you know, what are the things that are putting something in the bucket in in terms of you know what type of activities are just adding to the bucket and what kind of things are taking out that are shrinking that load? And is that imbalance? And it's probably never going to be completely because if I don't know, if you think about modern life, Liz, you know, most people in family life, as you say, that everybody's working and and quite stressful jobs, lots of pressure. You know, we're in a financial period where the cost of living is very high, so there's financial stresses that people were just not having previously. It's harder to even find work at the moment, I'm hearing from a lot of people. And then we're also supporting both up and down in our family. So we may have older parents who need support. Parents are living longer, and that means that they're needing support, they're frail, maybe they've got chronic illnesses and they're struggling, and so there's that sense of responsibility. And then we've also got our own children that we're wanting to support, and that whole kind of we've got relationships with our partner, which can be challenging. So there's so much complexity around how lives are structured. Um, and then there's also the stuff outside, like those people are worrying about war, worrying about politics, worrying about and all of those things go into that stress bucket, which means, and some of those are pretty big boulders, aren't they, to put in that bucket.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think you when we talk about stress, you know, you briefly touched on it, but actually there is good stress. Well, can you explain what you mean by that? I know you'd kind of touched on it, but in a bit more detail.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, I mean,

Modern Pressures And The Overflowing Bucket

SPEAKER_01 14:25

I I struggle with that as a term. I think it's about finding things that motivate and encourage movement and and positive. So I think about values and I try and think about what do we care about in life and where do I want to get to. And sometimes we need a little bit more of a gentle push to get stuff done. And sometimes a deadline helps us to achieve something if that's in line with something that we really, really care about and we really want to do, then actually knowing that if I don't do it by that time, there's going to be a consequence can actually be motivating in a positive way. So I think it's about looking at what is it, how important is it to me personally? For me, that's a really big deal. About what is it? Am I just getting caught up in things that are really outside my controls, like global problems, and actually I'm getting stressed about those things, which I can't control any of that. So that feels like an unhelpful type of stress. Or am I actually is it is it a sign that there's something important here that I really actually want to? So sometimes stress is a message, that's how I would see it. Yeah. That there's something that I'm not addressing that I that I actually really want to. So I would try and look at it in those terms as as what is it telling me about what matters to me in my life, and is there any action I could take proactively that would improve that? So that I I that's the way I would look at it. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Yeah, no, it does. I think it does completely. Because I I think what comes to mind when we talk about that and about stress is that you know sometimes we can logically think it through and think actually that you know, I can't I can't actually change that, and actually me giving time and attention to that is is not helpful. But I suppose there might be times when, you know, I'm just thinking my own experience in going through as I say things like tribunal, when you're working alongside systems that are so stuck, maybe is the right word, um, and you're trying to navigate through with your family that

Useful Stress Versus Unhelpful Stress

SPEAKER_00 16:24

you know you can't change these systems, but the stress that they give us is very difficult to push aside. And I suppose I hear that a lot when I talk at with parents that have got kids with additional needs, that often the kids don't cause the stress, the difficulty. What causes the stress is these external things. And and I talk to parents around that and acknowledge that there are some things that we cannot change that will cause us stress, but how can you help your central nervous system in those moments so that you can navigate your way through when you can't change the stress? Because sometimes we can't.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, I completely agree. And I've actually done quite a lot of work with people navigating lots of complexity around parenting and perhaps children with additional needs and and and frustrations around accessing services that are really needed and yet there are barriers that feel insurmountable and sometimes are practically insurmountable in some ways to navigate. Um, and so for there it comes back to really looking at what's in my sphere of influence. So, in terms of that immovability isn't the stress, the stress is trying to change, lean against a mountain and say, why can't I change the mountain? Why I'm pushing this mountain really hard, I just need to push it harder and maybe it will work. And actually, sometimes we need acceptance of um, I can't change a system that works fundamentally in a way that I and and and a grief around the fact that fundamentally I feel this system is not working the way that it should, it's letting us down. Um, and so there's a real sadness around that. When when I work with clinicians, we talk about moral injury, which is being part of a system that feels harmful, and I think that probably has a lot of resonance here as well. When we can see a system that's harmful for our children, then actually we're going to be that's going to feel harmful for us and for everybody in the family. Um, and and actually what's really interesting is that the evidence around supporting moral injury isn't always about fixing the system, it's about feeling heard, it's about validation, it's about connection. And those are things that are in our power. So we might seek support from others, we feel we air those feelings of frustration and say, this is very hard for me. I feel overwhelmed and frustrated. But the answer isn't just to try harder because it's not a sign we're not doing enough, it's a sign that the system's just really tough to navigate. And sometimes letting go of trying to press, we get we can achieve more. Because one of the things, Liz, that I see is when is stress a good stress or a bad stress, it also depends on where you're and how close to the cliff edge you are.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

So if someone doesn't have a lot of pressures in their life, then we can tolerate a big bit of stress and it doesn't really matter. We we we navigate it, we're just like, oh, that was difficult, but okay, carry on. But if we're at the point of exhaustion, where we've got sort of family-related burnout around these navigation, all these stresses that we're experiencing, then actually small things are are almost too much to

Mountains You Cannot Move

SPEAKER_01 19:34

manage. So we need to stand down the threat system a little bit because we're at we're at capacity for dealing with threat. So more trying to just fix it, fight, flight, freeze, that just pushes us too far. And so what we need to do is regulate, stand down, make some space, and and allow things to be difficult even when we don't want them to be. It doesn't mean we agree with it, but we do need to allow it to be a reality and then think about what is in my power. How can I address this in a way that feels true to my values, true to me, make puts my voice across, even if I it's not being heard in the way I'd like it to. How can I represent myself in my family? And I think those, and what do I need to do to connect with my family within that? Because I've had people who've got so stressed that they actually get so preoccupied with maybe writing a report of battling a particular agency that they're disconnecting from their families and they're thinking about that all the time, and then they're not actually spending time, recharging, having fun, enjoying the time together as a family, and that feels really sad to me.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Yeah. And I think sometimes that can be quite an easy thing to slip into. And I think, you know, I could be hold my hands up and say that probably I've, you know, slipped into that, that you become so caught up in trying to move the mountain that's never gonna move. But there's kind of something in you as a parent feeling that I've got to keep going and knowing when to say, okay, I need to come at this from a different angle or I need to do this in a different way, because I think you know, you get to the point that you that you're gonna be ill, um, and the impact that that has on us is just ginormous. And I think I like this description of the mountain that you're leaning into a mountain and knowing it's it's never gonna move, you know, the local authorities, and that it's it one person on its own is never gonna shift it, um, and all you're gonna do is end up in in yourself to burnout, which is you know where I ended up.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Um people often say people often say, Oh, but I you know, I feel like I should because it's wrong and we need to fight. And I would and and I have that conversation a lot, and I would just say, I totally get that. And if you have the capacity to do that right now, then do, but actually give yourself permission to pick a time. It may be that you would do that later, after you stabilise your own situation, you can come back and then be an advocate for others. Yes, you don't have to do it all right now. I just think. sometimes we need to give ourselves

Pleasant Persistence Over Constant Fighting

SPEAKER_01 22:01

permission to to let go of some parts of our of our our our sense of responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah I think that's really really important actually and I find you know again for me that I've had similar situations I you know I can see a lot of you know people that I know or fighting certain things I know that I can't get involved in that I I'm I'm so grateful that they are and that they're in a position that they can fight that and and take that forward but I know for me I can't and I remember funny enough another GP a very wise lady she was um and I said to her you know we were starting off on the EHCP route and I said people keep telling me I'm gonna have to get really cross and angry and I can't it's gonna make me ill I don't like that feeling I hate it I can't live in that it's gonna it's gonna it's it'll kill me that I can't I can't work like that and she said to me you don't have to be you just have to learn to be pleasantly persistent and that's all you need to be and she almost gave me that permission to have you know I was told by lots and lots of people you're gonna have to fight and I thought oh how can I I can't maintain that level of fighting for a long time and I know from experience and my job in the past it's going to take a long time and I can't maintain that I'm gonna be ill um and it gave me the permission to kind of go okay I can find another way to do this. I don't have to fight I don't have to let this take over my world don't get me wrong sometimes it still did um but yeah it was a very it was a really wise comment to make it in it's something that every so often when I can feel myself getting back into that that rhythm of fighting that I go okay I just learned to be pleasantly persistent and I can do that in a way that works for me and protects me and my family and our mental health because actually if I go full into this my stress levels are going to be up through the roof my you know my physical stuff gets worse and actually probably we don't get get any further forward.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

No and in terms of that whole family dynamic then actually it no we don't benefit as a family when people are in high levels of threat whether it's in fight mode whether it's it it doesn't it doesn't help with our relationships because the problem is that when you're in fight mode your amygdala is switched on you've gone into that fight flight freeze threat brain and actually that isn't the part of us that's very good at connecting at regulating our families at uh having time for you know relaxation and so there's only so much of that that we can draw on before it starts to harm us internally but also and it affects how able we are to engage in relationships and those things that really matter to us and so we can then it it there's a loss there that's actually greater than the gain sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Yeah no I agree. And I just wonder kind of thinking around inner beliefs and I think thinking about how that might affect our stress levels because I know there are some you know inner beliefs that might cause stress to be bigger, higher more what kind of things would that be Lee?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah so there's there's a few patterns that um sometimes we see and I think we can all relate to elements of all of these and and so that's the first point to make is that this is about normalizing it's kind of normal to have all of these aspects of ourselves and it's just about kindly recognition of oh yeah that part of me I view them as parts not the whole of us so we might have a part who holds a particular belief and that part might develop to a particular point in life when actually that really made sense to look at the world that way.

Inner Beliefs, Sensitivity, And Overthinking

SPEAKER_01 25:36

So we might have a a part who's quite highly attuned to stress and who so might and maybe very sensitive. So some we do get some individuals who are quite highly sensitive to to the impact in others. So for example if if our child is dysregulated we feel it really intensely it feels like a really and so it dysregulates us as a consequence because we're just very very sensitive and and that can sometimes trigger anxiety it makes us very tuned in to is everything okay it makes us more one likely to check a lot and it can make us more like prone to worry or thinking about possible problems and going over and over and you can get into a bit of a loop where you're overthinking about problems and not kind of focusing on coping with with because actually problems are just inherent with family life as we've talked about particularly neurodivergent family life the complexity of but everybody's family I think that's actually universal. I think we're all complex we're all nobody's easy to to to match so so actually there isn't a way to plan that's going to get rid of all of that. There's no thinking that we can do today that means there's not going to be a problem next week or next month or next year. So we kind of need to focus on what's helpful right now and cut and regulate ourselves and come back to that. Is is that a a sort of something that you've seen in the work that you do, Liz?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah I think even just when I reflect on it myself I think is that kind of yeah that pressure on yourself and that being very sensitive. And I think I suppose it's also quite important to think about is that like you said that would have served a purpose at some point in your life whether it's a protection mechanism or whatever it is that you know we can get these kind of highly attuned central nervous systems that are looking out for reassurance or you know safety and and that's what our central nervous systems for is making sure that we're safe and I think you know that there'll be there'll be times in people's lives when it's it's needed to be highly attuned and then it stays with us as a kind of personality thing that we develop that we are very attuned to other people's feelings and it it can have huge impacts and that we tune into how our kids are feeling and you know I can liken it in my son when he gets anxious I can feel it. I can actually feel his anxiety in my body and I've had to work really hard not to respond to that to try and um come at it in a much more measured way and not in a kind of fright flight freeze response that it can sometimes evoke in me and it's it's a weird feeling to feel somebody I say I don't often talk about this virtually it's interesting um and because Lee's a podcast host I think she's flipped it she's asked me I've never had someone ask me a question in the middle of podcast Lee thanks I'm just trying to get the heat off me for a bit Liz that's all I like it um and I think it's it I I don't know whether it's something that lots of people feel but I I can feel other people's emotions and that's hard.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Lots of people can I think particularly people who've gone into health professional roles would be quite likely to have that and it it is you know I want to emphasize what a lovely quality it is because it makes us empathic it makes us tuned in it makes us aware it helps us to to build these lovely relationships with people around us that are really important positive. So there's so many good things about it but if it becomes too intense and

Guilt, Shame, And Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_01 29:09

this is true of any personality trait I think it's all about balance all of our personality traits just need to be kept in balance so if that's a maybe a I think that urge to feel connected is is quite young. It we we have that from a very very young age. So you could imagine that that part was quite a young part who just wants to feel safe and connected to people around and what a lovely thing to to have that urge it's it's but at points when we need more balance and reflection or maybe when there's a stability we need our adult part to go it's okay these emotions are distressing and I've got your back and I'll give you a big hug but actually they don't mean that everyone's that there's some critical risk yes just means that this is a moment of distress it will pass we're all okay and actually you can just take a breath everything will settle down you don't have to fix it right away just allow a little bit of time and actually maybe let this adult version of me think about how to address it in a really helpful way going forward. We don't need to rush this you know I'm safe we're safe right now.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah and I think that can help yeah absolutely and is there any kind of anything else around those kind of inner beliefs I think there's things like criticism and stuff like that being self-critical I I think most of us have quite a strong self-critical I d don't you think you might do you see that a lot I see oh de yeah I'm I'm struggling to think actually there's a few people I've probably met through my life that I would say probably don't have that or they hide it well um but I would say the majority of people actually and especially parents yes I I think so so so I think that's again very normal to have and again it's a sign.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

So being self-critical means that we're quite tough on ourselves when things go wrong and it can mean that we feel guilt or even sometimes shame if things don't go as as we would really want them to. And there's a it comes often hand in hand with quite feeling very responsible for things perhaps sometimes more responsible things that are actually outside our control. So we feel it's up to me if there's if my child has got a problem is it my fault should I have done more am I good enough? And it's this questioning our own worth in relation to life's experiences which may just be complex experiences but we we kind of take the blame for them. And in some ways it's quite empowering because it means that we might make choices and changes but there's a limit to how much you can give yourself a hard time and for that not to take a toll on your self-esteem on your sense of self on and so it it it it weighs us down and I think in a way if you think about that bucket a self-critical narrative going on in our head all the time is this your fault did you do wrong you should have done better that's like adding a giant stone to that bucket that we're trying to carry that take that's hardly room for anything else in there because as soon as anything goes in it's like well there's no room because it's so full of this kind of self-critical voice and it means that things are actually more likely to fall out because they don't fit because we need them to be absolutely right before we're willing to accept that and even then it's like oh well actually probably I could have anyone could have done that. So we discount even if we do do well we ignore it or we discount it or we'll we'll say oh well probably next time it'll go wrong. So our brains are very it's I've heard it described that our brain can be like um a velcro for the negative so it things that go wrong they stick it's sticky and it's like a non-stick pan for the for the positive the things we've done well they just slide off we don't retain them we don't recall them we don't remember them and so it's got this very imbalanced um memories and and again there is a reason there's a there's a there's a reason evolutionary principle it's about you know it's much more important to remember that fire burns or that wolves are going to eat you than than oh I really liked drinking eating that yeah so it's more important to to no risk we don't want to fall off that cliff we don't want to get eaten by wolves and we need to remember that immediately so we learn it very quickly straight away and so there's a reason that we do it but actually again the risks we're facing in modern life are they're cumulative there's lots of them they happen all through the day and they're not so much about really life threatening as much as just this chronic buildup of things and so we can't put that same weight on those we have to allow ourselves to to be a bit less perfect I think and not think that that's what we're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Yeah absolutely and I was just interested as well when you were talking about and referencing the things around kind of guilt and shame and I wonder whether that's kind of tied up in that quite tightly um and you know I I was talking to a group of parents last week and we were talking about the difference between guilt and shame and that actually sometimes guilt is is useful it's a not a very nice feeling but actually it kind of holds us to our values and our um and our beliefs and when we do something wrong we might get a sense of guilt but I suppose there comes a point when we start to feel guilt about things that is is not our fault or it's about us as a person there's something that we're somehow the problem um

Rethinking Self-Care As Family Care

SPEAKER_00 34:24

which then quickly slips into that shame and that shame cycle and that that can be really difficult when we start kind of getting into feelings of shame and that we're not good enough or there's something about us that's a flaw or rather than this is the situation yes I could have done that differently and next time I'll do it this way it becomes about us that we are somehow some you know we're not as a good person as somebody else and as I do quite a lot of reading around um Brene Brown does quite a lot of talk about that which she's got some fabulous books there that does that talk about that and make much better sense than I will ever make about it. But I'm just interested in kind of how that ties in as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah I think I think it's hugely important um and Kristin Neff has also done a lot of work around self-compassion who I and they've both got some amazing TED talks that are quite quick watches that are really worth looking at about guilt and shame and about the the antidote so for me the antidote to that high pressure um maybe putting ourselves under unrealistic pressure maybe shaming ourselves and and actually that shame can show up again when we're facing we talked about the mountain if you're in a system that's hard to if we internalize that and think well actually because I can't make it change I must be failing I'm the failure here and again it's that internalization of of that self-blame to mean that something fundamentally I've I am now wrong as a consequence of being in this complex situation. And so you know that that is it's a very difficult emotion to experience and what people end up choosing stuff to try not to feel it that sometimes that we get angry for example or we we we might turn to food or or sometimes even alcohol or or avoiding things because it's just really hard that emotion is too intense. So it's really helpful to try not to allow motivation in any part of life to be driven by shame because it it will always have a negative it it spills out in negative ways. We don't want to make our choices based on shame or proving that I'm good enough you know that that's impossible. We've got to kind of accept that I'm doing my best I'm okay as I am and and the antidote is is about self-compassion and that that can sound kind of a bit wishy-washy a bit maybe a bit gentle but but actually sometimes that can look it's I think um I think it's it's either Brene Brown or Kristen Neff talks about fierce compassion um fierce and that's about being strong and it's about making the choices that are right for us. So we might have a a strong feeling that's really uncomfortable but actually we're going to choose what's healthy for us. We're going to choose self-care and sometimes it's harder to choose I'm gonna stand down I'm gonna give myself some time than it is to just launch in and do what we would normally do get our threat response in and start fighting. And actually it's harder to to create that pause and actually slow down and breathe through that sort of strong emotion just let it regulate um so I think it's about being kinder to ourselves and and accepting that we're we're just doing our best we can't I there's no such thing as perfect. We're all constantly getting stuff wrong but that's human that's just being a person you know that's just being that's it that's inherent to being alive that's that's okay that's actually the joy of it. Yeah um I so

Fuel Tank, Micro Pauses, And Backyard Tea

SPEAKER_01 37:44

I sometimes use an analogy actually of about um about a love well loved toy um as a self-compassion kind of image about what we're aiming for. So I don't know if you've ever had children who had a toy that they really love that sort of got really see both mine not at all but I know most kids do.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah. So but if anyone's had a toy that's loved or a blanket that they've sucked or held or anything that creates then actually that in its own right is what that child loves. It's what they turn to and that's how we are as that parent is we're the stuffed toy who's got one arm missing who's got an eye that's falling out who's falling at the end of the day something I feel like that every single day I think my look should typically look like that as well. Hair's like this you know standing up on end. And um but that is actually that you know our child will will pull for that one. That's the one they want. They love the loved one and it might be a bit stinky and it might not look but and we don't have to aim to be the toy in the box. And you know I say this a lot but I think that isn't who we're supposed to be we're not supposed to be like a brand new toy who's never been played with we're allowed to be a well loved toy who is a bit disheveled but is really loved as we actually are rather than this version of us that's that's shiny and not really that's like social media version isn't it that absolutely yeah the non-reality version.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Yeah and I think you know from a kid's perspective I think it's helpful for them to see that I often talk about you know it's okay to say I'm sorry to your kids. We're gonna get it wrong and actually by by you know showing our kids that it's okay as a grown-up to go do you know what I got that wrong I'm really sorry. And that that's okay to say I'm sorry that we're not then creating these cycles that our kids come through thinking they have to be perfect because my mum or dad held it all together and you know never got it wrong or never admitted to getting it wrong. That actually that's a really important protective factor I think for them as they grow into being adults and if they choose to become parents.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

And I think one of the other things that I I think is quite helpful to think about when we're thinking about how do I choose to be kinder to myself because people will often feel resistant to it. It feels difficult. It feels like I I have to not care about my kids or not care about someone else if if I'm going to look after myself and it feels like there's this competition between who's going to be cared about is it them or me and can't be me. And especially I think as women we're we're we're trained for it that we are supposed to be givers that's the kind of cultural message and it does make us lovely caring people within the family but it can it can also add a lot of weight to to what we carry internally and I would just shift it and again I do say this quite a bit but it's about thinking it's not like a bright light where the if the care was a torch you're shining it on them and then you're in the dark or you flip it and you shine it on yourself and if you shine it on you which is self-care then they're suddenly in the dark and they're not getting any of that light. But think about it as being a night light that stands in the middle of the table you're all around that table together and actually care is about something that we all have as a family we it's a value that we all hold and we're all being warmed by this lovely gentle light and and so then we can think about what does it look like today? What does self-care for us as a family unit look like? And does it involve mum getting some time to recharge and and and then the kids learning oh okay I'm allowed to choose time to recharge because I see that mum does that. So then there's a modeling thing which is actually very powerful that says self-care isn't something that should just get pushed because the problem is we can sometimes if we behave like my I don't matter that

The SPICE Framework For Resilience

SPEAKER_01 41:29

message can sometimes get rippled through by mistake we we're trying to care for others but actually they also see that we don't care for ourselves and I I think that isn't always a helpful message.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yeah no I totally agree and I think I I have this kind of thing with self-care and I think it's one of those things that I get I talk about it in the fact that I it gets thrown out a lot. Self-care at the moment is one of those things that people will go you just need to do a bit more self-care and I just think yeah if it was that easy we'd all be doing it. Yes. Um and actually self-care is quite complicated and complex and layered and when you've got it I think it's it and it's very very specific to certain people. So what is self-care for me is completely different say for you Lee. And I think there is this idea that self-care is bubble baths you know a nice long walk and actually for some people that's great and other people would be like that would be my worst nightmare and I don't have half an hour to go do that kind of thing. I'm running from this to that to the the next thing but self-care can look different to everybody and can encompass a whole load of things. So I think when I talk about it and I often talk about I don't like it when people say oh you just need to do more self-care and it's that you just need to do this in a thing drives me wild. I'm not opposed to self-care because we can I think what you described it as then is it it's care. We as a family care for each other and ourselves and it's moving away from that bubble bath thing and aromatherapy type thing. And that does work I'm not saying some people that you know don't I'm not saying that you can't have that. But it's not for everybody and it's finding what your care is and what what helps you and and means something to you and helps restore and recover you.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

100% I mean what if you have sensory you know and you hate bubble bars and you hate the smell which could easily be true for lots of people or you don't like heat for example you know there's so many reasons why you so I would focus on just looking at firstly what's in your bucket you know what are the things that are are are de you know if you're in a car and what are the things that use up your petrol you know what are the demands on your time your energy and just make a list and it's not it's this is not a blame because we all have things that we care about, our responsibilities, but just notice what things are actually just chipping away that are emptying our fuel tank a little bit and then think about what microactivities would be filling up the fuel tank. And I talk a lot about this kind of fuel tank idea because you might go to the petrol station and just put in like A pound's worth of petrol. Now that is not going to get you very far, but it might just stop you from going into the red zone and actually just burning out your engine, which is effectively what I think burnout is a bit like you've run out of petrol, but you've kept your foot on the accelerator, so the whole engine seizes up and actually then it has to go back to the garage and have entire repair job done before it's ready to dry. You can't just add a bit of petrol at that point, which is that's the other reason that self-care doesn't work, is if people have become burnt out, they they may need more than just some some gentle activities. So you need to do it well before you're off the cliff. That would be my the first thing I'd say is notice where you're at on that journey. And if you're quite far along, you might want to look at getting some proper support and input. But if you're earlier in that point, then absolutely look at balancing these things. And I would look at well, what for you looks like recharging your tank that fit fills up your tank just a little bit, you know, five-minute activities and and make a whole list. I'd be really creative about it because on some days some things will work, on some days, oh well, when I've got to take the kids here and I've got this job. We all have these complex weeks, don't we? Where there's like a million different clubs, or they've got to be here, or you've got this, I've got to go to my my parents on this. And so you can't have a one-size-fits-all because people's lives are just too complicated for that. So you need to have lots of options that and preferably ones that take between, I don't know, even 30 seconds. Sometimes just like a 30-second break is is enough to sort of pause. So I would want people to have loads of options and then and be really creative and say, let me find out what happens if I try this. And if it doesn't work for you, you hate it, don't do it again. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. And I think I work in a very similar way to that. That we I talk about finding those parenting pause moments. Where can you take a pause? And in that time, what can you do? That's kind of it it means something to you, and even when I think about it, you know, I I took up things like crocheting at one point, and it was just having something to do with my hands that gave me something else to think about away from what I was doing. But the other one that I use and quite a lot and I talk about with the parents that I work with is that when things were really bad and we were in crisis, and there weren't times where I actually had to be around in the house. I couldn't leave, and I'm a single parent, um, and my son wasn't at school, so I was there was no space. I used to go and and I still do it now, I go and sit on the back door. So I sat on the back door, doors open, so doesn't matter what the weather is, rain doesn't matter, I'm in it, um, having a cup of tea. And I might get half my cup of tea or I might get my whole cup of tea, but I got two or three minutes of just a pause in the day that I wasn't just running from the next to the next to the next to the next, and actually about finding some time in the moment to just a little bit of care for me.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Definitely, and I think I love that, it's so important. Uh I sometimes talk about spice activities, which is five different types of activity that we want to weave in over not over a day, but over maybe a fortnight. So we we want we don't want to ignore any of them. Uh and and again, they only have to be short, they're very bite-sized, it might be two minutes, five minutes, ten minutes. Um, so uh S is for something that gives us a sense of success or achievement. So it might be cooking something, yeah, um, it might be tidying up a drawer, it might be ticking something off your to-do list. So it's just something that feels a bit like successful, it's a kind of dopamine hit. P is physical movement, so it might it doesn't have to be intense, it's not necessarily the gym at all, it might be going for a walk. And I would really emphasize that when we're uh for people who have a lot of anxiety, who get stuck in their heads, and movement is much more regulating than trying to think your way out when you're in threat. Thinking is automatically going to be threat-based thinking, so you need to actually find movement will regulate your thinking far more at that point and then come back to thinking about it when you're more regulated. So that's what I would say. So, you know, move, just move, dance, you know, go walk up the stairs, even just something really simple, go in the garden, you know, do a little bit of weeding or just little stuff. And then I is things that feel important or meaningful to us. So it might be that that's about contributing to a cause that we do care about. It might be doing something for our parents, you know, we do some shopping. Um, it might be going to the dentist and getting everyone, the whole family to dentist, which is important for their teeth, and nobody likes it, but it's something that we've got to get done. And then C is about connection or closeness to people. So again, we need to make sure we're finding those moments of actually being present, being connected, where the goal is connecting, it's not about achieving something, it's not about ticking something off, and it might be through it might be through something. You might have it when you're driving with your child and they're sat next to you and you're sort of joking about something. So it can happen in all sorts of odd places, it doesn't have to look like anything specific. Might be reading a story together or or laughing at a joke together, you know, all those moments. It's micro, it doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

We have a moment, my boys will come down and share a TikTok video with me. And I don't even like particularly that and what they find hilarious, but it's that moment of mum, just watch this, watch this. That I will watch it and a lot of the time think I have no idea why that's funny. But there is a connection in the fact they want to share it with me. And those moments where you usually go, Oh, I don't want to watch it. Yes, is actually it means a lot to them when you go, Yeah, bring it in, let's have a look.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Definitely. I mean, I used to do something with my kids, um, which we used to call an eye hug, which is um over the room, if we would look at and I say, if you need anything, we can have an eye hug. And it would mean that we would look at each other and have just that friendly, kindly face, and and it would just take seconds and it would be a connection across a space. And they used to love it actually, just if they ever needed it, they could look at me and I and I go, okay, just do that sort of and uh and and it doesn't take a long time, but they just felt that connection. I didn't fix anything, I didn't do anything. It was it was very much connection-based.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

And then what's E? Yeah, so E is enjoyable, relaxing, or fun. So it be your like your crochet, it might be might be putting on some makeup, you know, it might be that bubble bath if you like bubble baths, or it might be something you might like to listen to some music, or um, you know, even do some mindfulness if that's for you, but it it might not be. And so it again, it's thinking, what what do I find? And at this point, you know, maybe you're really busy and you can't read, it's too difficult to concentrate. But you could listen to um a a short funny podcast or something lighter. There's a couple I know, Lee. I don't know which one they might be. Well, exactly. I you know, just put one on. Um, but just something, you know, anything that you find that takes you out of yourself a little bit, I think is quite nice because we we don't always need to be sat worrying. There's a limit to how much worry f fixes stuff, and often we go way beyond that. So we then need to draw a line and say, Okay, this is time for me to actually not try and fix things. And I think our little creative brain will be doing stuff anyway in the background if we give it some space, so it's not like we're giving up.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

I just want to start to bring that to a close because I think there's some amazing bits in there. I love you know where we've been with that. We've talked all about stress, we've talked about some of the things that might kind of cause stress, why we might feel it, but also you kind of brought that around full circle to the end, then thinking about you know some protective factors that we can put in there to help with stress. So I think what I'm gonna do is put in all the show notes. I know Lee's mentioned a few things, and if you're happy, well, I'll put the spice bit in there as well, because I really like that, and that'd be great for people. And then any kind of um links and things Lee and I have mentioned,

Resources, Lee’s Podcast, And Closing

SPEAKER_00 51:56

we'll put those in the show notes as well. I will put where you can contact Lee as well. We've kind of alluded to it as well, but Lee has her own podcast. Do you want to tell the uh listeners what your podcast is and what it's about? Because I've actually been on your podcast.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

Yes, you have, and you're a fantastic guest. So um I'm the host of the Choice Space Podcast, which is all about how we can make these practical choices that improve our health, our well-being, our lives, our relationships in lots of complex ways. I've had loads of really interesting guests who come and share their expertise in different different areas. So it's it's yeah, definitely worth joining if you're interested in some practical ways about things we can do. You know, it feels quite empowering, I think.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Yeah, definitely. And the breadth you've got is amazing. I follow uh follow Lee and her podcast, and uh, you know, the breadth of conversation you have got is brilliant. So, and you're kind of fairly new into your podcast being released, so to get this far this quickly, you know, you've done brilliantly with that. So I'll put all the links and make sure that everybody knows where they can find you with that, and then also you're across all the kind of social media sites as well, and I'll make sure those links are in the show notes as well. So that just leads me to say, Lee, thank you ever so much for joining me. I really appreciate your time. I've enjoyed our chat a lot, and uh thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. It's been lovely to be here.