The Untypical Parent™ Podcast

Why Parenting Feels So Hard When You Have ADHD & RSD

• Liz Evans - The Untypical OT • Season 4 • Episode 1

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In this episode, Laura Kerbey, author and founder of PAST (Positive Assessments, Support and Training), shares her lived experience of growing up undiagnosed with ADHD, and how that shaped not only her childhood but adulthood and parenthood as well.

Laura talks honestly about how deeply she wanted to be a parent, alongside how challenging parenting felt while living with undiagnosed ADHD and Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD). She opens up about the overwhelm, the self-doubt, and the low moments, but also the joy that came with it.

Laura talks about how she and her boys have built a strong, trusting relationship, the kind of relationship so many parents hope for, and what helped her move from survival mode to understanding, compassion, and connection.

I am so grateful to Laura for sharing so openly how she experienced things. This is a raw, validating conversation for parents who feel like parenting is overwhelming them, they should be doing better, and who need reminding that they are not failing.

 Find Laura Online

Books by Laura Kerbey (Mentioned in This Episode)

  • The Parents’ and Professionals’ Simple Guide to PDA
    Laura Kerbey & Eliza Fricker
  • The Kids’ Simple Guide to PDA
    Laura Kerbey
  • The Teen’s Guide to PDA
    Laura Kerbey & Eliza Fricker
  • The (Slightly Distracted) Woman’s Guide to Living with an Adult ADHD Diagnosis
    Laura Kerbey & Eliza Fricker
  • The Educator’s Experience of Pathological Demand Avoidance
    An illustrated guide to PDA and learning — Laura Kerbey

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I'm Liz, The Untypical OT. I support parents and carers in additional needs and neurodivergent families to protect against burnout and go from overwhelmed to more moments of ease.

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And if you'd like to contact me about the podcast please use the text link at the top or you can email at:
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SPEAKER_01:

Laura, welcome to the podcast. Thank you ever so much for joining me today. Thank you very much for having me. It's lovely to be here. It's nice to see you again. It's been a little while. We did do some. It's been a very long time. Quite a while ago. And it's nice to kind of catch up again and see how things are going. Because I think things have changed a lot and things we've kind of gone in the directions that we've gone in. But it's really nice to catch up with you again because I know you're doing some amazing stuff. Laura, tell us a bit about who you are and what it is you do. What are you up to at the moment? What is it you do?

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so I'm I'm the founder of PAST, which is positive assessment support and training. So in PASS, we we do all of those things. So we I work as part of a multidisciplinary team doing assessments for young people, and we assess for autism, ADHD. And then within that, we also look at demand avoidance as well. I do lots of consults with parents who are maybe sort of struggling with any aspect of parenting a neurodivided neurodivergent child. So they might suspect their child is neurodivergent and just needs some guidance on sort of what to do next. It could be anything really. And then I do lots of training in schools and colleges. And we've got over 60 children and young people now that we're supporting through Kite, and almost all of those young people are autistic with a PDA or a demand avoidant profile. And then I've written some books on PDA, I've written a book on ADHD. So not much then. Just a few things. Just a few things. But on top of that, as well, I think I've spotted you're doing a radio show. I am, I am doing a radio show. I'm doing a radio show with my lovely brother. So my youngest brother was diagnosed with ADHD uh this year. Um and he won't mind me talking about this because he's he's been very open about it himself. But my brother um last year had a really serious mental health crisis. Um, and you know, he he's he was he's battled addiction for um a number for many, many years from from when he was a teenager really. Um, and um he's been clean and sober for six years, which is amazing. Um but that clearly what happened last summer was a just a build-up of of years of undiagnosed ADHD, masking, um, just having to work so so hard just to kind of fit into a neurotypical world without people really fully understanding him. Um and we've always been very, very close, and I was very, very much sort of supporting him a lot last year, and and and I really started reaching out and like looking at what was available for for people like my brother, you know, like a young young man in his 40s. Um, and and there really wasn't very much that I felt was really relevant to him, um, in terms of like not even counselling or therapy, but just a sort of space where people would really get it. So we decided to start doing this radio show um where we're we're basically talking about all those issues. So we're very much talking about late diagnosed and late identified um neurodiversity, but also we're looking at the the kind of strengths that come from being neurodivergent, but also really looking at the challenges, um, particularly around things like mental health and addiction. Um, so yeah, no, it's great, and I I'm I'm so proud of him. He's we've literally had a meeting this morning planning the next shows, and what we're actually creating is like a website that's going to be a hub where people kind of land on this website hopefully, and there's going to be all different neurodivergent people on there that can help with. If you know, if you need a counsellor, we're hoping to get a bank of counselors, but if you want someone that, you know, we've got people in there who do ADHD for people who are neurodivergent, sorry, yoga for people that are neurodivergent, um, mindfulness stuff, um, we've got a lady that we've been speaking to who's a nurse practitioner who's actually really clued up not just on medication for ADHD, but also alternatives to medication. So I think we're hoping to build is this really useful kind of almost like a directory of support. Um, and the radio show as well, which has been really with the guests we've had so far have been amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

How cool, brilliant.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, would you like to be a guest on our radio show? I would love. Oh there we go.

SPEAKER_01:

There you go. I would love to be a guest on your radio show. I've never been in a radio show before.

SPEAKER_00:

There you go, you see. Oh, on our radio show.

SPEAKER_01:

I would love to. It's so important that isn't it, I think, to be able to get the support that is specific for neurodivergent people because actually it does need to be adjusted. It can't just be off the peg a bit of CBT here, a bit of that, a bit because it's so complex. And I think you know, I've been looking at burnout, particularly in in parents that are in neurodivergent families, whether they know they or suspect they could be neurodivergent themselves, or but actually it's finding that support that is really specific to neurodivergent brains.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think also what's really, really important as a neurodivergent person is that you have to feel a connection with the person that you're like, you know, talking to and sharing stuff with. And I think you've got to find somebody that you've got that really authentic connection with. Um, and yeah, that was it, that was something that I was really struggling to find for my brother last year. Like, you know, I was looking on counseling directories and there was just wasn't anyone that I thought, this isn't this, there wasn't anyone that was quite right. So yeah, I think it does have to be, you know, it does have to be the right person and and the right approach as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

The question that I ask everyone when they first come on, Laura, onto the podcast is Laura, are you the perfect parent?

SPEAKER_00:

No, because there's no such thing. You couldn't have said it better. Yeah. There's no such thing. And you know, I I've been working with parents now, as as you know, in my role as past for 13 years, but prior to that I worked in education, yeah. Um, started teaching 24 years ago. So I would regularly have meetings with parents that were really, really struggling. Um, and I I've always said I would be a, you know, I get paid to basically support other parents, but I would be a liar if I sat here and said that I was the perfect parent. And there there is no such thing as the perfect parent. There really, really isn't. Um, I think parenting is so dynamic as well. Like you're, you know, you're constantly changing your parenting, aren't you? Because your children are constantly changing, your children's needs are constantly changing. So you're you, you know, you're constantly adapting um and changing. And I think also there's so many sort of facets to parenting as well, isn't there? There's obviously the way that you were parenting, there's your own, I mean it's really interesting what you're talking about with like um burnout in parents, because there are times I know in my life where my tolerance as a parent has been massively reduced because of my own needs and my own mental health. Um, but I would I would say that I I can say without being embarrassed that I think I'm a good parent. Um, and I've got a fantastic relationship with both of my children, but it's it's never been perfect.

SPEAKER_01:

I think what's really interesting is that just before we kind of came onto record, I was saying to Laura that I've bought her book. So you've got your book, and I'm gonna read it because I'll get the wrong the words around the wrong way, otherwise, Laura says the slightly distracted woman's guide to living within ADHD, uh, with an adult ADHD diagnosis. And I was saying to Laura, I don't buy books because I don't read them, I just think there's no point. But I'd had a look online when I knew Laura's gonna come on the podcast, and I thought, I'll just have a look and see what's in it. Um, and there were some little bits. I thought, oh, I'm gonna go and read those bits because they're really interesting. And you've written it in a way that it's so easy to access. So even as a dyslexic person, for me, I could just dip in and out of it. It was easy to read, it was um broken up into nice little chunks. There was bits in there about that look things other other parents, I presume, had said, other people had said. Um, and then the little bit that I loved as well at the end of each section was something to write down because I I I get pi I really upset people with books, I fog corners, I write on them, all that kind of stuff. So I was like, oh, it was an actual page from me. You're allowed to write in this book. Yeah, allowed to. And I think what was really interesting is in that, in your book, you talk about parenting, and you're really honest and open about the kind of the route you went on with your parenting, and this was pre-diagnosis for you. So you're diagnosed ADHD. Yeah. How do you prefer to refer to it, Laura? Because I say that I am dyslexic. Other people say they have to say I have I've I've got ADHD.

SPEAKER_00:

You've got ADHD. I'd just like to check. Yeah, no, I know you have to be careful, you know, you have to have to be careful with language, but I'm fine. I'm I'm ADHD, or I've got ADHD, it doesn't matter. Doesn't worry, great, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

But what was really interesting then was listening, it was reading how for you not knowing that you were ADHD and the impact that had on your parenting. What what what was that like for you, kind of those early days and parents?

SPEAKER_00:

I think yeah, the first thing, and I talk talk about this in the book, is that the the one thing I always knew I wanted to be was a mum. I mean, from the you know, even as a little girl, I you know, I was always playing with dolls. I just was desperate. I used to beg my mum to have another baby because I just wanted to have something to look after. Um, but I also entered my being becoming a mum with a huge amount of anxiety because you know, I've I've had so many things in my life that I valued that I've lost or broken or damaged, you know, because I'm ADHD, I'm forgetful and I'm clumsy. And I, you know, I'm writing the book about how my first dog I got when he was a puppy, you know, he got really badly hurt because I wasn't paying close enough attention to him when we were down, you know, uh at the horses. So I kind of constantly had this fear and this anxiety as a parent that I was going to do something or not do something that was meant that my children weren't going to be safe. So I had this sort of permanent feeling of dread and like anxiety that something was going to go wrong. Um I also very definitely had postnatal depression with with both of my children, um, but I hid it really, really, really well because I was ashamed that I had postnatal depression. And I I remember like the the health visitor being very concerned about me because I was very tearful, and my particularly my second son did not sleep and did not settle. And I remember feeling absolutely kind of just desperate. And then she said to me, I'm quite right about you, I need you to complete these forms, and I just lied on the forms. I just thought, no, I don't want anyone to know that I'm struggling because I don't want anyone to think that I'm failing at this. Like this is one, this is the thing I've always wanted to do, and I just want everyone to think I'm really good at it. But of course, that just made everything worse because I didn't really get the support I needed. And I think as of you know, when when you have ADHD, it's so hard to kind of keep if I can swear, yeah, so hard to keep your shit together when you haven't, you know, when you when you've got ADHD. And then you you know, you put babies in the mix, which are unpredictable, and um you you know, you you don't every day was different, and I I was just so desperate for some sort of semblance of routine and and normality, and it it just wasn't there, and I really, really struggled with that. And I remember um my my first son was actually a really, really good baby. We always joked if we'd had him second, we well, if we'd had my youngest son first, we probably wouldn't have had any more children because it was so difficult. But I remember even with with James, my eldest, um I used to sort of stand at the bottom of the stairs at night to go to bed with the a feeling of absolute dread and panic because I was so anxious about the night, and I was so anxious about when he would wake up and how long he'd be awake for. And yeah, I just really struggled with it. And I think the thing that was so difficult was that it was what I'd wanted like for you know, all my life. Yeah, and then when it happened, it was so much harder than I thought it was going to be, and it wasn't anything like I had imagined it was going to be. Um, and that just sort of you know compounded all these feelings of like anxiety and depression, and I'd I I I you know I know that if I could go back and do do it all again, I'd do it very, very differently. I think the other thing was I've I've always been somebody that's compared myself to other people, and whether I was comparing myself to um, you know, people people on TV, like adverts and TV programs of like these, you know, slim, beautiful mothers wearing, you know, white clothes and it was all perfect, um, or or people that I was sort of meeting through NCT type classes, they all seem to be doing it so much better than me. And actually, my mum said something to me once that really made me kind of like, I thought, yeah, you're really right, mum. She said to me, Laura, when when you see a young mum pushing a buggy in the day, you probably think, oh, that mum's got it all together, you know, they've got themselves out for a walk and they're just going for a nice stroll. She said, That mum might be walking that child around the block because that child has not stopped crying for the last three hours and they're they're doing that out of desperation.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So one of my favourite quotes that again I mentioned the book is comparison is the thief of joy. And I think if I could go back and do it again, I'd just stop comparing myself to everybody else. I'd just do it the way that I felt was right for us. Um, I felt a lot of pressure to do it the right way. And I don't think that I don't think you can put that on yourself, particularly when your children are really young.

SPEAKER_01:

And I felt quite strongly with, you know, I didn't do NC2, I just did the kind of the normal kind of offer that they gave you. Um and when I look back at that now, I think, you know, they did a lot of stuff about you know the birth, which never goes as it's meant to go. I don't see the point in my birth plans because actually you just get disappointed because it never goes that way. Exactly, yeah. They go off about, you know, they go on about the breastfeeding, and then then you get yourself into complete tiz about that because you're not managing that either. And then you kind of go into this spiral of again, I'm a rubbish mum and I'm failing and whatever. But what they don't ever well, they didn't when I was having children, I don't know whether it's changed, but I suspect it hasn't, is that there isn't much in there or anything actually about just looking after you whilst you become a parent and you're making this huge transition. It's huge into nothing you can even compare anything else to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I I can rem I can remember coming home from the hospital when my when when I had my first son, and I remember standing in the shower, he was like a couple of days old. I remember having a shower and just crying, yeah, and thinking my like my everything hurt, like every single part of my body hurt, and I felt disgusting, like I just felt that my body is ruined, everything in my body hurts. I felt like I've been in a car crash, and I thought, why is no one checking in on me? Like it it it it was almost like I think it's almost like a trauma going through birth, like particularly the first time you go through it. Yeah, and I remember like you know, all these people kept coming around to see the baby, and not one person sort of just taking me on side and going, Are you all right? Like that must, you know, it was horrific. Um but yeah, again, I think I think a lot of that is is external pressure, isn't it? Whether it's from the media or other people. I think I don't think we do talk enough about um how how just unbelievably awful those first few weeks can be, really. And and yeah, obviously having a child is something to celebrate and I you know 100%. But at the same time, I don't think there's enough uh checking in on parents and not just mums, actually dads as well. I think it it puts mums and dads under huge, huge pressure. The other thing that I I I remember doing as well is I became utterly obsessed with breastfeeding. Yeah um and I had a book and I used to write down in the book left boot and then how many minutes they'd fed for. Yeah, and then the next time they'd fed, right, and then how and I literally became like a slave to this book as well, and I can see now that what I was doing was my life felt very, very out of control, and I was clearly really struggling, and that was my way of I I'm controlling this situation, like you know, becoming very sort of obsessive about writing everything down. Um and then yeah, I mean, as I say, like I I wouldn't, you know, I love my children and I never ever regret anything about having pair uh becoming a parent and and having these two amazing boys, but it it was so much harder than I than I imagined. And and again, I remember my mum saying to me, I think she I think she said that when she had me and my brother, I think they kept you in hospital for like two weeks. Yeah. And my mum was saying, like, you know, I can't I had my youngest son and came out the same day. I didn't even stay in overnight when I had him. And I remember my mum just being really like, I can't believe they've let you come home. Like, you know, like when she was saying when we had babies, they used to take you off us in the, you know, take the babies away in the night, put you in a nursery so the mums would all get some sleep, they'd be there to help us with breastfeeding, the bathing, changing everything. Um, just and I and I felt like I really needed that. I just felt like I needed someone to sort of wrap me up and go, you know, we'll look after you, baby's fine, we'll look after baby, and it it just doesn't happen anymore, sadly.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think I feel quite strongly that that happens kind of, and that's might been my experience when my son became really poorly. So my son's autistic and I talk about him quite a lot. Um, and he is on an ETOS package, so educated nother than at school, because he he wasn't able to access school, he just couldn't go. In. And the the big thing that kind of set me off in the direction that I work in now is because I had lots of people kind of giving me this is what you need to do to help him, this is what all the things I needed to do, which I knew, but nobody ever asked if I was okay. And I was falling apart behind the scenes, but of course, really good at masking. Everything's fine together. Um and I wasn't, and then that's what happened. I ended up in a massive burnout.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, it wasn't his fault, it was just the demand at that point, and and it was very much lots of people giving me advice, and then they all went home. That was part of their job. They went home at night. I was left with him in the night thinking, can I keep him safe? Um, and the pressure was ginormous. And I think that's what directed me to do the the work that I do now with parents, is to support parents and basically be going, Are you okay? Yeah. Because a lot of us aren't.

SPEAKER_00:

Aren't and I and I think I think it's you know, I can really relate to that as well. So my youngest son was diagnosed with a very rare brain illness when he was in, well, just before his 11th birthday, and it was horrendous. And uh, you know, he was very, very poorly. He ended up having three rounds of neurosurgery, um, was in and out of hospital for two and a half years. And actually, there were sometimes like some some nurses or some consultants that would say, and how are you getting on? And I'd be like, It's this is awful.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And they'd be like, Yeah, it really is, you know, you really need to look after yourself. And that was really refreshing, but I'm that was also the minority. And absolutely, when we're in hospital, the focus a hundred percent had to be on Finn, a hundred percent had to be on Finn. But it it, you know, you you know, and I'm sure lots of the parents listening know that when you have a child that's unwell or has additional needs, and you're you're constantly worried about them, you you do put all of your energy into looking after them, but you know, there's that saying you can't pour from an empty cup. And and you know, I think particularly as women as well and as mums, we are expected to just kind of keep absolutely everything together um and make sure that everyone's okay. And I and I know that often that's at the detriment of our of ourselves and our own mental health as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And we're so key, aren't we, to the whole thing staying together that but but there goes with it all that guilt and um shame that you're not coping, um, and that you should be doing better, could be doing all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Um, and that's really, really hard in those moments, and we beat ourselves up a lot, I think, as parents. Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's quite traumatizing as well. So I I had a so my as I say, my son had three, three, three neurosurgeries at St. George's Hospital. And um he's really he's he's really well now, you know. He's he still has his condition, but it's managed because he has a shunt. Um what that means is that if he ever needs any kind of MRIs or anything, he has to go back to St. George's because he's got a shunt and they have to check the shunt afterwards. So about three or four years ago, we had to go back up to St. George's and he had to have an MRI. As I say, he has to have it done at St. George's because they have to check the shunt after, because the MRI can knock the shunt settings out. And we walked, we went upstairs and we walked past the theatres where I'd sat three times, you know, sat there for two, three hours while your child's having neuro surgery. Although, actually, I did write about this in the book. One of the times he was having neurosurgery, I went to Primark to distract myself and just I just left the hospital and went shopping. Um, but anyway, on this on this occasion, I walked past and I saw the the the theatres, and there were some people waiting outside these theatres, and I started crying. Just literally, like it's tears. I just started crying, and thing was like, Mum, oh my god, like what are you doing? Like it's not that serious. And he thought I was crying about him having an MRI. It was obviously trauma, like literally just seeing this waiting area where I'd sat literally beside myself as a parent, um, waiting for him to come out of surgery, just triggered something in me. And I I think often as well, as a parent, when you're going through a really difficult time, whether whether or not it's because your child is unwell or you're struggling to meet their needs, or whether they're really struggling in school and you're constantly having to fight schools, local authorities, you know, to get what you want. I think it's very, very common as a parent to keep it together and then it will catch up with you when things have calmed down a little bit. It's like a delayed trauma response. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that exactly happened for me. That I think going the trauma of going through tribunal for us as a family was ginormous, kept it together. We then had an advocate that kind of carried us across the line because I was that by that point was heading way down. Um, and it wasn't until afterwards I hit rock bottom. But I think that's all that adrenaline, isn't it? All that cortisol is flying around in your body, you're in that fright, flight, freeze response. And it's not until some of that pressure comes off. And at those points, you know, you're concerned at times for your child's life. That actually, as a parent, that's one of our most important things, isn't it? We have to keep them alive. Um, and when you feel that's taken out of your hands, whether that's through operations or whether that's through the local authority and and barriers being put in place for you or being made very challenging, the trauma that goes with that is huge. I absolutely I have to stop all work with tribunal work. I don't do any reports or anything like that for the tribunal anymore because of what it does to me. And if I get a message from the case officer, up it all comes back up again.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and I and I was talking to a parent a while ago who who said that if they see the Surrey County Council um logo, that triggers their anxiety because they've they've had to fight. Sorry, sorry, but they've had to, and it's not just sorry, but they've had to fight so hard to get their children. And you shouldn't have to fight. You should not have to fight to to get your child what what you need. It just feels it's so wrong and it's so utterly exhausting. Um and you know, it's it we know, don't we, Liz, something really needs to change within within our system so that parents don't have to keep going through this. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

I suppose I'm really interested, Laura, because we talked about kind of ADHD and some of the difficulties around that and not obviously not knowing that you were ADHD. But what I loved in your book was you talked about what ADHD did bring. What did A what did ADHD bring to you for you as a parent and your kids?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think that's what you know, I've I've I think our house was full of fun. You know, we we would always go off on adventures and stuff as well. So I was a single parent from when my children were three and six. Um, and we would just, you know, half-time holidays, we'd just jump in the car and go off on adventures and you know go down to the beach or you know, go go and I was talking last night about when we stayed in an old hunting lodge near Lulworth Cove and we took took the bikes, and yeah, we just we just had a lot of fun, you know. We were a very active family. Um, and you know, I I'm very lucky that I live in a really lovely part of the world which with lots and lots of countryside, and you know, we always had animals and dogs, and yeah, lots, lots and lots of outdoor stuff. And yeah, I mean I I've always been a very low demand parent as well. And I think I was I was a low-demand parent before I even knew that there was such a thing as low demand parenting. Um, and that's caused some you know issues with people saying I'm not I wasn't strict enough. And um, I remember uh one family member sort of sitting me down and and actually saying to me, Laura, you know, one one of you, meaning myself or my ex-husband, one of you needs to get a grip of those boys. And and and I just remember being one really offended by that, yeah, because actually the worst thing that you could do is attack my parenting. That that would cause this, like, how dare you criticize my parenting. But but two, I've remember feeling very, very confused by that because my pet my kids were actually like pretty well behaved, you know, like they weren't like terrorists, they they were they were just lively boys. Um, but yeah, no, I think you know, we we would always do, you know, I'm not sort of person that can sit around doing nothing. So we were we were always doing stuff, yeah. Um, you know, so we we they had a sort of active, busy um childhood. Um and I say lots of lots of outdoors, horses, dogs, all sorts. So it was it was lovely. Yeah. I miss it and I miss it in lots of ways actually, because they're grown up now. I was gonna say, because your boys are older now, aren't they? Yeah, they're 19 and 22 now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, okay. Yeah, so mine are 15 and 14, yeah. And it's funny, isn't it, how it changes as well, I think. And like you said at the beginning, how you change your parenting changes as well. And the way I met one is very different to the other. Yeah, and they need different approaches from me.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, last last not last Wednesday, the Wednesday before, um my eldest son um and I went up to London together so he could get a new tattoo, you know, and it's like, you know, and and he he afterwards he went, I know mum really enjoyed today. And I was like, Yeah, it's been really nice, you know. So yeah, now my I've I've I would say now my relationship with the boys is you know, we're just as close as we always were, but it's really changed. Like they are, you know, they're they're they're all I know people kind of object to this, but they are almost like my friends, yeah. And um, you know, my eldest son in particular is he actually works for me now as as a learning sport. Yeah, he's brilliant, he's so good. We he he you know, he didn't have the easiest time in school, his ADHD. Um and he he had a particularly had a difficult time sort of when he finished school, like knowing what he wanted to do. Yeah, and um I was doing a PDA training course for professionals, and he wasn't doing anything. I said, Look, do you just want to come along and just join in, see what you think? And I could tell he was really nervous about it, but he was he was brilliant. Um, but he's a he's he's very empathetic, James, and very caring, and he he gives advice sometimes. I'm like, oh my god, that's amazing. Um, and I I make a point of of um once a month, just myself and the boys, we the three of us just go out for dinner, just the three of us, yeah, without anyone else, without my husband, without their girlfriends, because I really, really that to be honest with you, they are my favourite people just to hang out with, like the the three of us together. It's just a really, really nice dynamic. Um so yeah, I'm I'm I'm very proud of them. And the other thing I'm very proud of as well is particularly because I was a single parent and um they were, you know, they they were on, you know, this it was really just the three of us, and without disrespecting anybody, the relationship with my ex-husband was was very tricky for a long time. But the other thing that I'm very, very proud of my boys is that they've both got long-term girlfriends, and the way that they treat them is amazing. Like I'm so proud of them as young men, the way that they treat women and girls. Um, and I we we were actually talking about this the other day when we went out. We were talking about how your parenting influences your parenting, and we were saying, you know, we've we've all been parented by non-perfect parents, because there's no such thing as a perfect parent. And there's elements of the way that I was parented that I remember thinking as a child, I I would never do that. And and then as a parent, actively being, you know, as I say I was a very low demand parent, whereas my parents were quite strict with me. And I remember thinking, I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna shout at my kids, I'm never gonna tell my kids like what to do, which obviously you do sometimes. But I think they've they've really taken, they've they obviously observed and were witness to things that were not okay in my relationship with my ex-husband, and they've they're not repeating those things, it's like they've kind of actively done differently, which I think is amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

And when you see that, Laura, do you find it easy to kind of then go to yourself, yeah, I've done all right? Look at that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean I d I do feel like that, but I but I also would never take full credit for that. Like there's I think there's there's you know, their their dad obviously has had input into their into their as a parent, but um I I think I think they're very much their own people as well, and I think yeah, they and I'm you know, I've had people say to me, Oh, your kids are a credit to you, and it which is a lovely thing to be told, but I think I just think they're good, they're good kids, yeah. And they've both been through a lot as well, with you know, James, as I say, undiag well, diagnosed with ADHD at 12. He also now, and I agree with him, self-identifies as autistic. Okay. And I think with James, I think when he was in school, the ADHD was so much more noticeable, and now he's not in school and he's got a lot more autonomy in his life, and he I think the the autism is becoming much more obvious. Um and then obviously Finn's been through an awful lot with his health as well. So I'm I'm really proud of how they've both sort of overcome all of that as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, the other thing that I was gonna talk to you about was RSD, because I know that features in your book. Um, I've you know I've heard you talk about it and seen you talk about it on social media and stuff like that. Um, and it really interests me this because although I don't have a diagnosis of uh ADHD, RSD, when I read about it, really hits home for me like really hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um so what it is. What it what is kind of know what we're talking about. Yeah, rejection sensitive dysphoria or rejection sensitivity dysphoria, some people call it. Um it's it's estimated that 98% of people who have ADHD also experience RSD. Obviously, you can experience it and not be ADHD as well, but you know, I think if you've got ADHD, you're gonna have it. Um, and it's basically um the easiest way to describe it is you constantly think you're in trouble, you constantly think you've done something wrong. Um, high, highly, highly sensitive to criticism, um, highly sensitive to anything kind of like negative, like in terms of feedback, your brain constantly goes down like a negative route. So, for example, um I do, I I try so hard not to, but I still do it all the time. If I text a friend and they don't text me straight back, I think, or if I see that they've read the message and they don't reply, oh my god, I've done something wrong. I've said I've said the wrong thing, I've done something to upset them, they've found out something about me, um, which is horrible. And before what I can see now is before I understood that I was ADHD, before I understood about RSD, that would make me incredibly kind of like needy in relationships. So for example, you know, when I was younger, if I liked a boy and they, you know, I didn't we didn't have text messages then, but if I phoned them and they didn't phone me back, I'd phone them again. And then if they didn't phone back, I phone them again. And then I can imagine them kind of getting home and like the parents saying, Oh, that girl Laura's like phoned you like six times tonight. Um, and the other thing is as well, I I did my NPQH, which is a like a headship award years ago, and I had a really good mentor, and I remember this mentor saying to me, Laura, you could have there were 60 parents at my school. I said, he said, you could have 60 parents come to like a parents evening, 59 of them would tell you that you were fantastic and the school was brilliant, and they were really, really happy. And one parent would tell you that they weren't like happy, and he said, You will fixate on that one parent that isn't happy, and and he's he was absolutely right. Like, I would always focus on that, so it it's it's horrible, and I think you know, I link it in the book to the fact that there was a study by psychologists, I think it's Williamson. I should know this off by heart because I keep quoting him. Um, he did a study where he he estimated that by the age of 12, children with ADHD will have received 20,000 more negative comments than their neurotypical peers. That's huge, it's massive. And then I say in the book, imagine how many it's is by 16 and 18 and 20. And and a lot of that is because we're ADHD. You know, I was always getting into trouble at school for not listening, not concentrating, forgetting my homework, not having my equipment. And I wasn't doing any of those things because I was naughty. I was doing no, I was behaving that way because I was ADHD. But you're when you're constantly getting into trouble, it's a I guess it's a type of trauma again that you're you you're kind of expecting to be in in trouble. Um, but it but it has made me horribly, horribly anxious over the years. Like, you know, it's really, really impacted on me. Um, but now I understand it better. I still experience RSD, but I can label it and I can say, no, Laura, that person's not upset with you. They haven't called you back because they're probably busy or because you know they're forgetful, or because whatever. So I can I sort of the the expression I use in the book is I take the thought to court and I kind of like try and find a little bit more evidence around why I'm having that really negative thought. And often there isn't any evidence to like back up what my stupid brain is telling me sometimes. But it's it's really debilitating sometimes. It's it's horrible, really horrible.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's really hard, I suppose, as well. For you know, as as we become parents, and there is that general comparison anyway, yeah. Um, that also there's parents that like yourself um that get that diagnosis later in life, they might have never even heard of RSD. Right. That they're kind of muddling along as best they can with these horrible, crippling anxiety feelings and comparison to other people, and like you say, feeling like they're in trouble all the time and they've done something wrong. And that's exhausting, and that leads to burnout, you know. having to live in this way.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I think the other thing is as well, for me, it certainly stopped me advocating as hard as I should have done for my children sometimes because I was like, oh, I don't want to upset anybody. And I don't want the parent, I don't want the teacher to be upset with me. And I don't want the teacher to be talking about me in the play in the in the staff room and being labelled. And actually I I was talking to some parents the other day and they said that they were really being worried really worried about being labelled as that parent. I said I totally get it because I used to be the same but please don't think like that. You know, you you have to become that parent sometimes and also your pet your children are going to be in your life for your whole life. Your child's teacher's going to be in your life for maybe 10 months. So it doesn't matter. But yeah it's it has stopped me advocating for my children at times.

SPEAKER_01:

It's really interesting you say that because I think I had something similar and I still get it at times when you know I look I look back to you know my son becoming quite poorly and thinking why didn't I say more and I remember time thinking even with the job that I do and I've been in meetings and meetings but I felt that I was going to be in trouble. I was going to be that parent and then afterwards beating myself up for weeks and months and probably still a bit down the line that I should have done more. I should have said more I should have been more vocal I should have been more difficult. But also I find it quite difficult that I I find it quite difficult to get cross and be angry. It makes me feel really unwell eventually I hate confrontation. Me too absolutely hate I'll avoid it like the plague and I think I had I had a lady say to me eventually because everyone kept saying you're going to have to get angry you're going to have to start arguing and fighting for this and I was thinking if I have to do that I'm not going to survive this. I I cannot be like that. And I had somebody say to me you've got to learn to be pleasantly persistent. And that's really helped me that I am persistent but I'm pleasant about it but I'm just going to keep coming back. And that's the only way I've managed it. But I still have those days when I go back and think why did I just let that happen? I just let that happen and I feel awful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah it does make you feel awful I mean in the book actually in in the ADHD book I do include some assertiveness like little templates because I find those can be really really helpful. I think the other thing that I found as well is that when I have stood up for myself or stood up for my children when I you know like you you know like you don't have to be unpleasant you just have to I would say stick to facts not opinions as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. But it always feels amazing like I can be assertive and you know I I just think but I I do think it's really really hard and I think I think you know as a as a neurodivergent parent as of neurodivergent children like any kind of social communication at times is going to be difficult whether it's a face-to-face meeting or um you know emailing and and yeah I don't know if you do the same Liz but I would sort of scrutinize emails and I couldn't just read things at face value be like oh is their tone like a bit I have to get other people to read emails for me Laura because I will immediately go to they're having a go at me they're being horrible and then someone else will read it and they'll go they don't mean that at all Liz that's not what they're meaning and I think with if it's with written communication yeah you can really misconstrue it sometimes can't you can read into things that actually that's not what people mean.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah but it is it is like you say it's hard and it's really really really exhausting. I think I think that RSD actually um I've written about RSD in my teen's guide to PDA because I really it's it's not talked about enough as part of like neurodiversity kind of like assessments and diagnosis. And I really think it's really really helpful for young people to understand it as well. So there was a young person with PDA that I was working with a while ago really love nice young young person um but she was talking to me and there was all lots and lots of sort of challenges with her friendships and relationships and everything and I said to her have you ever heard of RSD and she's she actually said oh God are you going to label me with something else and I said no no no I said but I think it'd be really helpful for us to look at it together and we did and I remember her saying oh my God like this makes so much sense now like why has no one said it before but I also think it's really really important for professionals to be aware of RSD as well because if you're um and for parents as well if like if you're giving feedback to a child or criticizing a child or telling a child off it can be absolutely crushing to get that negative feedback. So we have to sort of understand that you know neurodivergent children are going to be highly sensitive to that as well. Yeah. Laura if I said to you in your parenting experience so far um because we never stop being one do we know that even when they get big and grown up we still end up we're still a parent what's probably been your best bit what's been your best bit about being a parent well I think like I said I think it's the end I mean there isn't an end result yet because we're still but I think I think it's the fact that I've just got such a good relationship with my with my boys and the fact that you know they want to spend time with me like they you know I don't force them to spend time with me. They we we just genuinely really enjoy each other's companies I've always said the my favourite sound is the sound of my boys laughing and I remember like when they were little like if I was downstairs and they were playing upstairs when I used to hear that like real giggling it usually meant they were up to something they shouldn't have been I love that sound of them like really really giggling. And now because they've got a good relationship as well my boys they spend time together um and I sometimes hear them on the phone sort of laughing and yeah I think I think just though those sort of just those happy times that we had together and that's one of my favorites them laughing the kids and that real belly laugh that you when they're proper laughing they've lost it upstairs or as you say wherever they've lost they're just laughing.

SPEAKER_01:

Those are some of the best moments.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah and I like the fact that like my boys like really take the Mickey out of each other as well but it's like in a really good humoured way. Yeah. Yeah so yeah I think I think my probably a memory that really sticks in my mind of what an unbelievably kind boy my eldest was was um when my youngest son wasn't very well unfortunately there was a a Christmas day when he got rushed into hospital and I I had promised him that we would have a nice Christmas because he'd had such a horrible sort of November December he'd been very very unwell and on unfortunately on Christmas day it was very apparent that he really wasn't very well so I had to take him up to St George's and we were actually in hospital uh for about four nights and it was it was awful because you know with Christmas you'd already have all these expectations and um James came to visit Finn in hospital and didn't just didn't say anything about what he was planning. And when we got home James had been out with his the Christmas money that he had got for Christmas and he bought Finn another load of presents wrapped them all up so that when Finn came in the house he he he basically James was like I wanted you to have another Christmas day and I just remember I get emotional thinking about it. I just remember Finn just going over to James and just hugging him and just crying and just it was just so beautiful and I just thought wow I didn't even I didn't suggest that that James did that he did it completely on his own and at the time he would have been about 15 or 16 so yeah he did did it all while I was in hospital with Finn he just took himself off and did all that so that's a nice one that's made me feel a bit emotional as well yeah really really like just a really beautiful thing to do.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah absolutely if if there's a parent listening today and they're listening to this podcast is there a bit of advice that you would give someone what would be your kind of top tips always really hard but you know just kind of what would be your advice there might be a parent that maybe accrue with their ADHD or whether some of the things kind of thoughts and feelings they get in his RSD or I think there's two things really I think first of all stop comparing yourself to other people like whatever you're going through and again thinking back to when Finn wasn't really wasn't very well I joined this Facebook group for parents who whose children had his condition and I realized it was actually really unhealthy for me to be in this group because there were some children who were really really poorly and that frightened me because I thought oh my God is that the route that we're going to go down and then there were some parents whose children were nowhere near as poorly as Finn and then I thought I don't know why you're saying you've got it easy kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00:

So actually I think comparing yourself to others whether you know whether it's your friends your family people you're you're seeing on TV whatever is generally pretty unhealthy just do what you really in your gut you isn't you know is right for your children. And I think the other thing that I would say is you are always doing your best but your best will change and there'll be some days when your best is literally getting out of bed and throwing a pot noodle at your children because that's all you can muster. Yeah and you can't even get in the shower and that's okay. Yeah um and yeah then there'll be days when you you know you can get it together and you're in the kitchen baking with them and making like really amazing healthy food and that's okay too like you're just always doing your best and your best is going to change.

SPEAKER_01:

Amazing thanks Laura I think all it leads me to say is thank you ever so much for coming on. I will put all Laura's details in the show notes um about your books and about all the all the things that you do because there's so much I probably can't list it here all near now we listed that at the beginning um but I'll put all those links in there so that people can find you if they want to find you but thank you ever so much thanks for coming on and talking about ADHD and RSD and I say I've thoroughly enjoyed dipping into the book and hopefully going to get into more of it which for me as a dyslexic person is really great to find a book like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you Liz thanks ever so much