The Untypical Parent™ Podcast

Autistic Girls, Women and Non Binary People with Cathy from The Autistic Girls Network

• Liz Evans - The Untypical OT • Season 3 • Episode 4

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Kathy Wassell, CEO and founder of the Autistic Girls Network Charity, talks with me about her journey creating supportive spaces for neurodivergent individuals, particularly women and girls who are often missed in traditional diagnostic pathways.


What began as a simple online community has blossomed into a charity serving over 32,000 members, providing training to schools, and offering vital support to neurodivergent girls and non binary people across the UK in a variety of ways.

We dive into a range of topics, such as diagnosis and why recognition matters. The launch of the Haven online school designed specifically for neurodivergent girls and non-binary young people who struggle in traditional educational settings. And of course, we talk about autistic girls, women and non-binary people.

You can find more information about the Autistic Girls Network here:

Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn

Cathy's book: 

Nurturing Your Autistic Young Person: A Parent’s Handbook to Supporting Newly Diagnosed Teens and Pre-Teens

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I'm Liz, The Untypical OT. I support parents and carers in additional needs and neurodivergent families to protect against burnout and go from overwhelmed to more moments of ease.

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SPEAKER_00:

I really am delighted today to welcome Kathy to the podcast. Kathy is the CEO and founder of the Autistic Girls Network Charity and a passionate advocate for neurodivergent individuals, particularly women and girls. With a deep understanding gained through both professional and personal experience and neurodivergent herself, Kathy's committed to fostering a world where autistic individuals are understood, accepted, and empowered. We're going to cover in the podcast a bit as well some of this information, but just to let you know, Kathy is also an author of their highly acclaimed book, Nurturing Your Autistic Young Person, a practical guide for parents and carers. And driven by her desire to create more inclusive and supportive educational environments, Kathy has founded the Haven Online School, a tailored and nurturing learning experience for neurodivergent learners recognising and celebrating their unique strengths and needs. Kathy, thank you ever so much for joining us on the Antichrist Parent Podcast today. It is lovely to have you with us. Thank you for having me. You're very welcome. So we've had a little intro to you, Kathy, and about what you do and who you are. But all my listeners are very used to the way that we start the podcast each episode, and that is to ask everybody that comes on, are you the perfect parent, Kathy? Well, definitely no.

unknown:

Does anyone ever say yes?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I've had a couple that have said yes and then they laugh hysterically. One person go, of course, and then just left it. And I thought, oh, are they being serious? I've got the wrong person on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I'm definitely not the perfect parent. I think back and cringe about some of the things that I used to do, like trying to um make my son look at me when I was talking to him. Um, I used to do that. Um, so you know, definitely not the perfect parent. I'm not sure the perfect parent actually exists. Um, and if they do, I'm sure that they're a constant work in progress.

SPEAKER_00:

I I don't believe it. If anyone said to me they were perfect, I'd be like, I don't trust you. There's something very wrong. There's no way you can suspect. Yes, very, yeah. And I think like you said, you know, when we look back to kind of our parenting and maybe before we knew diagnoses or all those kind of things, is you know, we we we go back to leaning on what we know, and we only know what you know. Um, and I think for me, my parenting is always been it's it I'm constantly learning, even now when I think I've got it pinned, and I go, yeah, I've got this, then they'll be in that purple, and I think nope, still haven't got it. And that's really hard work.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I agree. And I I think that um we just we just need to do the best that we can with the information that we've got. Um, and once you know different, you do different. Um if you don't do different, then yeah, that's where you're becoming really imperfect.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, but you know, you just you have to do what you can with what you've got. Um, and as long as you're doing the best job that you can with that information, then I'm happy.

SPEAKER_00:

And I often think the parents that are going, you know, or you know, I'm they're kind of listening to podcasts like this, or they're accessing the things that you offer, Kathy. Um those parents often I think they're the great parents because they're constantly looking at, okay, well, what what what don't I know? What could I do differently? What could I do to make this better? And they're the really great parents, not the ones that you see on Instagram with everybody smiling and happy and you know on their Twitter.

SPEAKER_01:

The parents who the parents who want to learn absolutely realize that they have gaps in their knowledge and they want to learn, or even if they don't realize, but they're they're kind of trying to find out more, and then they start to realise that they have gaps in their knowledge. It's it's brave to realise that you have done things wrong and to admit that you have done things wrong. It's much easier to think, okay, I haven't done anything wrong, you know, I'm not the perfect parent, but you know, I'm I'm doing fine and I don't need to change anything. Yeah. That's a much easier road than to try and change what you've been doing.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's really interesting because all the podcasts that I've done more recently is I haven't heard anyone talk about that actually, about how brave it is to be able to say, I'm struggling, or I'm not managing this, or I want to be able to do things differently, or I haven't done this quite as I would like to have done. And even when we know lots of information, we can still do things where we think, maybe shouldn't have done that. Um course, of course we can.

SPEAKER_01:

And probably we still do it, even once we've become more, you know, clued up on everything, we probably still do it. You know, we have uh I don't actually know the exact figure now, but we have over 32,000 people in our Facebook group for Autistic Girls Network. And I guess we're a little bit different to some groups, um, in that we are a mixed neurotype group. Yeah, you know, you can be any neurotype to join. Um, and so it's really, really important that we are respect all respectful to each other and all make allowances for differences in communication, etc. And sometimes that's hard when somebody is just joining and they're not used to that yet. And so we actually refuse a lot of posts. Um, we have specific rules about um, you know, for example, not moaning about uh your autistic person. Um and we reject a lot of posts because it's not we aren't a parent support group. We're very open about that. That's in one of the rules, as we are not a parent support group. Of course, most of our members are parents, they're all most of them are also neurodivergent themselves. Um, and yeah, it's absolutely fine to ask a question about um how you how you parent, if you're a neurodivergent parent and you're having difficulties, you know, around that issue, um, but we don't allow posts that are basically just a moan about autistic children. And sometimes that can be controversial, and sometimes people get annoyed because you know they want to aren't they're having an issue and they want to ask something. And so what we try and do is reframe the post, get them to reframe the post so that it's not a moan, it's actually asking what I can do to support my child in this relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes that's a learning curve that people that people have to, you know, and it won't suit everybody, and maybe some people will immediately leave us. I don't know. Um, but it it works for us and it makes for a kinder group, I think, to everybody, and then everybody starts to realise, oh, this is how it works. And then you don't, you know, for a long time you don't have any problems, and then you have an influx of people and the problems start again. Um, but that it tends to work quite well, and I think it's I don't know, it's almost like a metaphor for real life. It's this is how it should work in real life, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. I think there's always that that worry, isn't there, when you start to get into that that cycle of everything's terrible, and lots of that you need moaning or whatever it is, that actually you can get into these really horrible cycles. And actually, the the way out of that, it's not the way out of things, is to get into that circle that just they can get bigger and bigger, those circles too, can't they? And like you said, quite unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01:

And also it's it's like reframing your thoughts slightly, but we are very aware that some families are really, really struggling. Um, and you know, and they're not getting support in any area, maybe in any of our systems, you know, most of what is going on is a systemic problem. You know, our education system, our health system, our social care system, they are all pretty broken as far as supporting neurodivergent children and young people. Um, and that can be a huge issue for people. And if they are struggling, if they don't know how to co-regulate, they don't know how to um teach their young person more about emotional regulation, and that means that young person is getting more and more dysregulated, and that will lead to challenging behaviour, um, which is not a term I generally use, but you know, in that case, you can see you can just see it building up, um, then you know, it can be really it can be a real struggle, but it's as much about the way things are framed um in questions, and you can get help in our group in that situation if you frame it. Yeah, how do I support my child? Um but as I said, that won't be for everyone.

SPEAKER_00:

Was was where did it come from, the Autistic Girls Network? Where where did where's the where's the creation of that come from? I'm really interested.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so Autistic Girls Network as a charity. Uh um I'm I turned it into a charity in November 2021, I think. Um, but before that, it was just a Facebook group and a Twitter community, really, when when Twitter was a thing. Yeah, yeah. We don't we don't post on Twitter anymore, but uh you know, it used to be a big campaigning part of what we did. Yeah. So it's it's a shame that it's kind of all exploded, really. Um, but before that, uh there was a group that was called Figs, uh, which stood for fighting inequality for girls on the spectrum, that was founded by a lovely lady called Mandy, who um had multiply uh neurodivergent children and had much, much more difficulty getting her daughter diagnosed than her son. Um, and that was why that group started, and then I took it over, and it kind of grew and grew and decided on changing it into a charity. I mean, changed my life as well, which is why basically I um did that as a full-time job for as a volunteer for for three years. Wow. Um, and yeah, and then everything else changed, and now we're we're opening a school and so much stuff coming up. My world has gone crazy.

SPEAKER_00:

I can well imagine when I had a look at your website and what you're doing, and I know and I see on the socials and stuff like that, so much uh information, support, progression, things that you're offering, is it's it's amazing what you've got going on.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I couldn't do it. So I I was the only so last year I was employed part-time, and that was amazing. Um, and then in December we got a part-time fundraiser, and in March we got a part-time volunteer coordinator, and we have a team of freelancers who do training and group facilitation and peer support groups and mentoring, and you couldn't do it without a whole organization behind you, Kathy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, they're all fabulous, and of course, everyone's so passionate because they're I I think pretty much I think pretty much everybody that does any kind of work or volunteering for us is neurodivergent themselves, or or they're the parent of neurodivergent children. And so, you know, it's a call, maybe cause isn't the right word, but it's it's something that they're really passionate about because they know that they would have. I mean, the number of people that say to me, Oh, I wish they had been around when I was younger, or when my children were younger, or you know, um, and yeah, I wish it had been. And ultimately, I wish that we don't need to exist.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, but at the moment we definitely do.

SPEAKER_00:

And I suppose what's really interesting is you set this up for girls and women. Um, is that like you say that there has to be a need for that because there is a difference, we know in the diagnostics, don't we? In that girls notoriously are missed. Is that improving at all, Kathy? Is that changing?

SPEAKER_01:

I do think it is improving. In the time that I've been doing this, I definitely think there is a lot more interest in talking about girls. Um, this year, or maybe this academic year, um, we have done train our author. So we have autism and girls training for schools. We have lots of school training, but that particular one, we have done that for three um special schools, who of course are perfectly used to uh neurodivergence, but actually they had hardly had any girls before, and they were starting to get a lot more girls. Yeah, and so they thought that they needed some training on how it presented in a different way. And I should say, we don't believe that in female autism and male autism doesn't exist. Internal versus external presentation is what we're talking about. So, yes, some boys, certainly some non-binary young people, will present in that way, in that internal way, which means that they're more likely to get missed. Girls equally may present in an external way, which means it's much more likely that they'll be diagnosed at the age of three or four.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and if if you are a girl and you were diagnosed at that age, probably you have a more external presentation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And I suppose, like you say, it it's such a shame that this has to be the case, that we need charities like you that you set up, that girls are getting missed. And I suppose the impact to those girls that are getting missed, then we've got parents now that are undiagnosed as you know, undiagnosed autistic. And sometimes I suppose we go through that process, don't we, as parents, that when our kids go through the diagnostics pathways, that we then start to go.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's, I mean, in anecdotally, in in the experience of people in our group, that's much more common than anything else, is that you as an adult, you discover your neurodivergence when your child gets a diagnosis, because your normal is your normal. And how are you supposed to know what's going on in other people's brains? You know, so so whatever happens in your household, you know, you're doing things the same way as as usually as what happened when you were a child, unless you had an awful childhood, of course. Um, probably if you're neurodivergent, one of your parents is also neurodivergent, you know, it runs in families. So um that's the thing. People are doing things in the way that they've been brought up to think of as normal in inverted commas. Um and it's because they're neurodivergent and they don't realise that other people are doing things differently, just the same way as you know, you don't realize for ages, probably until adulthood, if you're facebind, for example, if or if you have a fantasia, so you can't really picture things in your mind. Or, you know, I've seen a lot of posts from neurodivergent people saying, hey, is it true that people don't have an internal voice and things like that, you know? But all of those things, you don't know whether your experience is normal in inverted dummas or not, because you can't tell what's going on in other people's heads and they can't tell what's going on in yours.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But then I suppose that's when the diagnostics become and I have a difficulty with people going like, oh, you don't need to get a diagnosis. And I think it's up to the person because it's the self, you know, the self, um, you know, if if you believe that you're autistic, that is enough. Um, and if that gives you the support that you need, that's enough. But what I do have problems with, and I remember back when I was very young, qualified OT, and the local EP service in the area had decided they were no longer going to diagnose dyslexia. They weren't going to diagnose it because they didn't think it was helpful. And now I think having a diagnosis of dyslexia for me later in my life, now I've always known I was dyslexic, and I you know, I've talked about being dyslexic, but until I got that diagnosis, I don't think I truly understood it. And I had one of those real light bulb moments where I go, you know, those things I found really hard.

SPEAKER_01:

That's why. Oh, absolutely. I did my master's dissertation on, well, it was actually on um the checklist that's in our white paper, Autism Girls, and keeping it all inside. But it was, you know, it was essentially what I would what I was asking, I was asking autistic women, um, as one of the questions was, what difference do you think it would have made if you had been diagnosed earlier? So many people said, I wouldn't have been so vulnerable, I might not have been abused. And they were talking about all different kinds of abuse, not just sexual abuse. Um, but you know, so many people felt that they were put in a more vulnerable position by not knowing that they were not, that they were neurodivergent. Um, you know, and as a charity, our position is that self-diagnosis is completely valid, um, and as you know, exactly, exactly as you say. However, you are, unfortunately, in our systems, you are disadvantaged if you don't have evidence. And that it's that piece of paper that is the evidence. And unfortunately, if you don't get a diagnosis, you're unlikely to have any kind of evidence. So, for example, disabled students' allowance when someone goes to university, you can't get that if you don't have a diagnosis. It's not based on need anymore, it used to be. It's not based on need, it's based on having a diagnosis and having that proof. So if you don't have that, you can't get DSA. Now that's a big deal. And you know, in things like getting benefits, for example, even getting an EHCP, which is meant to be needs-based. Yeah, I'm sure we all know so much about this. You know, it's all meant to be needs-based. You know, getting um pip, for example, not meant to be based on getting the diagnosis. But if you don't have the diagnosis, you don't have the evidence, and you need an evidence trail to be able to get it. It's almost like a bad key, isn't it? It's dangerous, I think, to say to people, oh, you don't need a diagnosis. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think so, you know, even things like getting an EHCP. Um, my son was diagnosed very late, and he didn't have an EHCP at school, although he should have done. Um, and it was very difficult for him to get pip because they said, Oh, you didn't get an you didn't have an EHCP, so you don't need it. So even that was being it was being weaponised against him that actually he'd been missed and misdiagnosed and um pretty much neglected um in not getting any HCP, which would have really benefited him. And we were at the early stages of our knowledge at the time, and so you know, didn't pursue, and we were dealing with other stuff at the time, um, so didn't pursue it, but actually that made life difficult for him. It also meant that he couldn't get a supported internship, so you know, it's not as simple as saying to people, oh, you don't need a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00:

And some parents, I suppose, might be out there thinking, you know, I don't want to lay, I've heard that conversation a lot, haven't they? I don't want a label for my child.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and I think when I look back, and I think, you know, having a diagnosis later and knowing that later, you know, for me, I would say my mental health has been affected by not knowing earlier. I think there's a lot of anxiety around me in certain areas. Yeah, but also I think the diagnosis chapter on that in my book.

SPEAKER_01:

If you're not if you don't get that label, you get other labels. Yes. Get labels like weird or drama queen or you know, all of those things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and I was always called the anxious child. I was always an anxious child.

SPEAKER_01:

Now I know why. Well, he's so he's so sensitive, you know. Yes. Um, it's it's I mean, yes, maybe he is sensitive, but there's a reason why. Yeah, you know, he's sensitive because his sensory system is in overload and you know, all of those things. Yeah, um, so yeah, I I'm not really one, I'm definitely not one for that argument. And we we see that quite a lot in our Facebook group. Parents who come and say a professional um or a friend or a grandparent has said, Oh, why do you want them to get a label? And yeah, we have lots of very good arguments against that.

SPEAKER_00:

There are, there are, I think, even just personally for me, but also like for my son as well. You know, we we we didn't get a diagnosis for him until it was a bit later down the line. Um, and it's almost like a key to the next step. I couldn't get to the next step. Although everyone's saying to me, like you said, you know, oh the HCP you can get it without a diagnosis. Yeah, but it's really, really hard, and it's hard enough as it is, even with a diagnosis. So it's almost like a key to the next step that you needed to be able to get there. Um and that's that's hard. That's really hard when you haven't.

SPEAKER_01:

And also, why wouldn't somebody want validation that that that's what's going on? And that's the reason for some things that have happened and I learned loads about myself.

SPEAKER_00:

It it came back to um you know things I hadn't even really thought were part of being dyslexic. And when I read this report, I thought, oh, that's that's part of the dyslexia. I thought that was just, you know, I I was struggling or I wasn't so good at, or whatever it is, that then you get into that kind of negative stuff in your head and oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

And and you know, especially when now we realise that there's so much co-occurrence. So, you know, what we should be doing is when somebody gets any kind of neurodivergent diagnosis, what we should be doing is we should be screening for other neurodivergencies. You know, my my daughter is autistic, ADHD, dyspraxic, and dyslexic. Those are her diagnoses. Um, we stopped at that point. Maybe there's more, I don't know. But after that, it didn't feel like there was much more point, and she wouldn't have got any more support. But you know, each of them brought its own understanding and validation. Each of them is is some days more of a challenge and some days more of a joy. You know, there are there are just as many joyful points about being autistic, being ADHD as there are challenges. Um, but each day, each day is different, and each day one part of her, I suppose, might be more prevalent. So one day, you know, it might be a sensory overload day, one day it might be a hyper-focus ADHD day, one day it might be, you know, a real struggle reading something for her dyslexia. Another day, you know, she's she's got her Kindle, and she can completely hyper focus on and and read a whole book, which is a big deal. You know, she didn't have a dyslexia diagnosis until she was 17. Really, she didn't read a book before that. And now she costs me a fortune in ebooks. You know, so having that getting that diagnosis and realizing why the letters and numbers were moving around the page or you know, whatever happens in her brain, because obviously it's different for everybody. Yes, yeah. Um getting that validation of why that was happening was a huge deal to her. Maybe the hugest deal. Her first diagnosis was autism, and that was a huge deal, but yeah, you know, maybe the dyslexia diagnosis actually made more difference than all the others.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, so I think it's, you know, it's different for everybody, and I don't think anybody has the right to say, why do you want to label yourself?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

What what I was really interested as well about your what you offer, Kathy, as well, is that a lot of the work that I do and is is for parents. And I have to keep saying it's not because we don't care about the kids and we're ignoring the kids' needs, because that comes part and part of being a parent. But what I'm trying to do with parents is help them focus a bit and equal some of the focus on need to be inclusive of them as well. Because we often see, and probably you've seen as well, is as parents in additional needs families that often we are pushed to our limits. And I don't necessarily always mean by the kids, by the environments that we find ourselves in, systems navigate and that you know, all that kind of thing. Actually, I think our kids is a small part of it. I think the other it's the other stuff that causes us the stress and and can make us quite poorly and unwell at times when we're in crisis. Is what I love is that, and I would say to people, if you're listening to this, is go and have a look at the Autistic Girls Network because actually you've got a section in there for women that would be for parents that might be thinking maybe they're autistic, they might know that they're autistic, but actually it's about support for them and not just about their kids.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, it's not just about kids. So for probably the first couple of years, most of our, well, other than our Facebook group, which is obviously mostly adults, well, almost entirely adults, almost entirely women, actually, almost entirely neurodivergent women, actually. Um so obviously, you know, that is is adult support. Um, but we also do peer support groups for autistic women, but that's relatively recent. And I would say probably for the first few years, we did concentrate mainly on um young people. Actually, for us, mostly teens, most of our face-to-face groups are for teens because that is tends to be the age group where most are in crisis. Um, so we that felt like, you know, because we kind of exist because of undiagnosed or unrecognized, I should say, neurodivergence causing mental health issues, or resulting in, perhaps causing is not the right word, resulting in mental health issues because of all the other things that we've talked about and systemic uh uh lack of support.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um I think we felt like that was the area that we needed to concentrate on. And so we did concentrate on that and still do uh for face-to-face groups, concentrate on that. Um, but you know, we know that autistic women needed some support as well. So peer support groups have been very popular. Um, and we do do some mentoring, which when when we've got funding for it, which we haven't at the moment, um, which goes up to 25 as well. Um so yeah, there has been support for, and we now we do family workshops as well. So we've got lots of videos on our YouTube channel, loads now, actually. I don't even know how many. Um, and we have started to do family workshops, um, which we then record and you can purchase for a small amount on our website.

SPEAKER_00:

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, so yeah, there is there is definitely support for families as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And we'll put all your details obviously in the show notes so people can find this if they're interested in the things that you've talked about, Kathy. We'll pop them in there so they can find you nice and easily. Um the other thing that I spotted on your website, which was really exciting, was something about the Haven. So this is new. This is new.

SPEAKER_01:

Tell us about the Haven, Kathy. So the Haven is our new online school, which is now starting really scarily soon for me. Um in September. Um, it's for neurodivergent girls and non-binary young people aged 12 to 17 to start with, because we are we don't have investors, we are funding it purely from the charity, so we need to start small and grow sensibly. Um and it is likely to be that either people will be coming from home ed where they want a bit more structure as they get towards CCSE years, or um, and probably what is more likely is our cohort will be probably a very traumatised one who have um dropped out of school for various reasons, um, because there are they have been so many barriers to school attendance and school enjoyment and school, not even enjoyment, but being able to tolerate school uh for for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, this sounds amazing. Well, I was having a look through it, and just even some of the language that you use about it being neuroaffirming and stuff like that, you know, is is so lovely to see because I my son is educated in other than at school, he's on the ATUS package at home. Um, and trying to find the learning side of it for him has been really tricky. Um, and we use an online provider. It's it they're great to a point. Um, it misses the fact I think that it's it it's it's not neuroaffirming. They try to be, but it's not, it's not set up in that way.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, you know, this is our this is our cohort, you know, we know our cohort super well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and we you know, we have a huge um school training package or packages now. Now, you know, last in the last academic year, we've trained about 150 schools. So, you know, we do the training for this for teachers. As it happens, the core educators that I've recruited for September are all neurodivergent. I'm not promising that they always will be, because I think that would be a silly thing for me to promise. But I can say that if we employ educators who aren't neurodivergent themselves, it's very likely that they will have a link to neurodivergence. And that's why they're so passionate about joining us, because we had a huge number of applications for these roles. But also they will have access to our entire body of school training. So they will they will be very educated about it, about neurodivergence. So, you know, we in our interviews for these positions, a lot of the questions revolved around, of course, safeguarding, of course, how do you adapt teaching for online learning? Because it's not the same. When we're not talking about what happened in COVID, it's just not the same thing at all. Um, but also how do you adapt for different kinds of neurodivergencies? Um, and there was we had a really fun interview um for a science teacher. Um, and I think the question was about um how do you adapt for an autistic learner who has um very specialized special interests and is not interested in how you're teaching it at the moment, what would you do? Um, and he was being a little bit vague in his answer. So I said, you know, let's be specific. The special interest is Pokemon, you know, how would you adapt for that? And he said, just a minute. And he went off and he got his folder of Pokemon cards, came back, moved his camera to the desk, and said, What do you want me to teach? And I said, I don't know, circuits. Um, and he proceeded to teach me circuits using only Pokemon cards, and it was brilliant. Oh, how amazing! There are so many different ways that you can engage learners, and yes, you can't do some things that you can do face to face, but actually you can do other stuff that you that you wouldn't be able to do face to face. Um, I think I might have just said that the wrong way around, but I'm sure you know what I mean. Um, so yeah, you know, there are lots of exciting things that you can do. Um, and there are interesting ways that you can use AI, for example, to create some exciting um lesson plans. Um, and you know, everything like that. I think that it's going to be very important that we are respectful of everybody, of our of all of our learners. You know, we realise that a lot of them may be may have been traumatised. We don't call ourselves school, we don't call ourselves teachers. Um, you know, you don't have to put the camera on, although it would be better if everyone had their camera on because it's going to be much easier to build community.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So what we what we hope and what we think is our responsibility is we need to create a psychologically safe space where everyone feels comfortable to put their camera on and to speak out. You know, we're very aware that some may be situationally mute and may not be able to speak. And there are lots of other ways that you can engage. And you know, you can have a private message to the educator, you you know, you can do lots of different things. You can engage them with polls, you can there's lots of ways of knowing that they're there and engage without them having to speak, for example, or without them having to put on their camera. So we consider it to be our goal to create that psychologically safe space so that they can engage more.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's so important, isn't it? I think I'm just thinking back to my son, and when we made that transition and the trauma from school for him, um, and making that step back into learning again, actually on Lyme was a really good way for him to do that. It gave him a sense of control back. The camera doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_01:

And autonomy is the most important thing. Yeah, you know, and so Monday to Thursdays, we're doing more academic-y stuff, but Fridays is our passion-led project-led day.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And that is where autonomy comes to the fore. What we what we hope from that is that our learners will co-design with their tutor a project about something that they're passionate about.

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and they will co-design a five-week project. Um, we will match it to aspects of the English Maths and Science curriculum. We have a competency framework that we've designed that aligns to points in those curriculums. I'm sure there's a proper word for the plural of curriculums, but I can't remember what it is. Um, and then, you know, we want that learner to be in charge of their own learning. So what we'll be saying to them as part of the co-design is you need to pick five competencies that you're going to match, or you're going to be able to tick off in that five-week project. So which ones are you going to be able to do? Yeah. And so they choose them. And when it gets to week three or week four, you know, they've been regularly meeting with their tutor, and you know, what we want them to say is, I've ticked this competency. And then the tutor can say either, yes, you have, or you've done it brilliantly, or they can say, Oh, I think you need to do a little bit more of such and such before you've quite got it. Um, and so that autonomy is going to be absolutely the most important thing. But equally, we can say to Ofsted, we are offering a broad and balanced curriculum. Um, but we're also we're not pushing learning down their throats, they're learning in a way that is more exciting for them, more interesting for them. And hopefully that will relax them into the other learning. Because obviously, you know, for GCSE English, for example, yeah, there's not that much choice about what you can do. You have to follow the curriculum. Um, and so you know, and people say, people say to me, Well, what about PDA? Do you how how do you deal with PDAers? And we say, Well, you know, we're very uh aware of the needs of PDAers, without meaning to generalize, of course, everybody is different. Um but there are we can't remove every demand, you know, we have to have a timetable because our our educators need to know when they're teaching, you know, they have their own families, everyone needs to know when to turn up for live lessons. Um, so it's not possible to remove all demands, even from this environment, it's it's not possible. So there has to be, uh, you know, you have to be able to cope with a certain number of demands, but it's whether we can lower uh, you know, make a make a lower arousal environment for everything else so that anxiety ramps down, yeah, and you're able to cope with some of those demands.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. It's finding what works for each person, and it's not always the same thing for everybody, is it? No, of course it's not. Of course it's not. Finding and what you're doing though is providing something for that cohort of kids that are in that space and need that that approach. And so that's definitely been a huge thing for my son, be able to kind of transition to that. And and Ina Hinao is on camera and will talk in specific classes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, but we're not obviously in something as as specialised as what you're offering. Um, it's much more generalised, and they're doing the best with the with what they've got and the knowledge that they've got. Um, and it's worked for him so far. Um, and he's starting to think about possibly next steps and where that might be and whether that's he's day where he stays where he is to do with GTSEs or actually whether he looks at a more bricks and mortar type environment when we're not sure yet. So that's kind of up in the air, but it's definitely been the bridge for us and has rescued us. Um yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01:

It can make all the difference. It won't suit everybody, it wouldn't suit my daughter, she would not have have coped with online learning. But that's the point, isn't it? That's why we exist, because one size doesn't fit all. There has to be choice, there has to be options. Yeah. Um, and you know, I would love if it's one of our long-term aims as a charity is to have face-to-face provision, but we don't have the funding for that at the moment, you know, maybe a few years down the line, maybe never know Haven Oxford, Haven, uh, Manchester, you know, who knows? Yeah, but at the moment we're not we're not there. But but online feels a good compromise to start with.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And we have small class sizes, we cap our class sizes at eight. Yeah. So it's more likely that somebody is is going to start to feel comfortable enough to to engage. We'll keep those classes together. So, you know, you'll be doing English and maths and science. Okay. If those are what you're doing, you'll you'll be doing those with the same eight people. So that will that will help a bit, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

Sounds brilliant.

SPEAKER_01:

And also um doing exams at home is also going to be an important part.

SPEAKER_00:

Because I don't think people realise that that could happen.

SPEAKER_01:

I didn't realise that that could happen. Well, it can only it can only so it's Pearson Online and it can only happen with um international schools or online schools. Yes. Um, so of course there are ways that you can do it in a mainstream school, but it's very, very hard to get that option. Uh but yes, we will have remote invigilation. So um they won't need to go to a strange exam, unless they want to, they won't need to go to a strange exam centre.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. There's another thing that I know I want to catch in here and make sure that we don't run out of time to talk about because I know Kathy said to me, I'm not very good at talking about this, but that actually Kathy has a book out. So, Kathy, tell us a little bit about the book that you've got out at the moment. Because I know you said, well, I you know, I can talk about it, but I'm not quite, I'm not so quite talking about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

This summer, this summer we've done a lot of um exhibitions and shows, and it's always good if I have other people on the stand with me because they can talk about the book and I don't have to talk about it myself. Um but yes, it's called Nurturing Your Autistic Young Person, and it's a handbook for adults um with regards um getting a diagnosis, negotiating that kind of newness of diagnosis or recognition, doesn't have to be a medical diagnosis, for preteens and teens, um, and all of the things that I've you know, I tried to cover everything really that you might need to know. So there's stuff about co-occurring conditions, there's stuff about meltdowns and shutdowns, there's stuff about EHCPs, there's stuff about benefits, there's stuff about you know possible next steps and transitions and and all of that, really. So it sounds real practical kind of yes, it's a kind of a dip in, dip out type book. It's got I'm lucky it's got lots of very nice reviews on Amazon. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_00:

And did I hear you say is that what you were doing the um audio recording for? Yes, it's got it's got an audiobook. Brilliant. Because I always like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Three days because it was 80,000 words, that book. So it took three days to record the audiobook.

SPEAKER_00:

That is a long time.

SPEAKER_01:

My voice is a good one.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm pleased to hear there's an audiobook because I always go because as an autist and as a selective person, I find it really difficult with the reading. But my first question usually is is it on audiobook? It is, it is on audiobook. Brilliant, brilliant. Um, Kathy, just to kind of tie it up, I don't know whether obviously there's parents that parents will be predominantly listening to this and they might be having a really tricky time at the moment. If there was one tip, and this is really generalized and really hard to do, if there was one tip you could give a person, a parent that was struggling at the moment, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01:

I think it would be, I might have to split out my tip a little bit. So you can do that, cheat slightly cheating. Um, I think it would be learning about emotional regulation and alexothymia. Yeah, which is uh having which is someone having real difficulty identifying and expressing emotions, and over half of autistic people are alexothymic. I think I personally I think is well over half. Um understanding that so that you can help your child to learn about emotional regulation and you can co-regulate with them because if you can't stay as calm as possible, and I know that sometimes that's a tall order, and help them co-regulate, they are not going to be able to learn to emotionally regulate, and that means they're gonna become more and more dysregulated, and your life is going to become more and more chaotic and sometimes miserable. Um, so the best thing that you can do is to stay calm and learn about that stuff so that you can help them become more emotionally regulated, and then everything. The thing is, with high anxiety, everything ramps up. Sensory reactions ramp up, you know, you can't bear to hear someone chew, you can't wear sometimes. You can't wear any clothes, you know, your sensory sensitivities are so high. Um, you know, and if you can just dampen everything down, it does start to really help. And it makes a difference to everything that happens in your life. So that I would say that learn about emotional regulation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, I'm big for that one, being an O tier thing. And I think I've done um, I've got a short webinar out that I do with parents about understanding the sensory side of parenting, so understanding it from their perspective. So, like you said, it's really hard, isn't it, that to try and co-regulate someone else when you're dysregulated as a parent. Because a lot of times parents don't recogn don't recognise their own sensory needs. They'll know about their kids because they've had no tea coming and see them and they might be known about those. But actually, there's that there's a there's a key bit missing there, which is about our regulation as parents and our sensory needs. And they can clash quite spectacularly.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and of course, you might have kids whose sensory needs also clash. You might have an entirely, I mean, many of us have an entirely neurodivergent family. I know I do. Um, and all of your needs might clash. Yeah, and navigating that is hard. It is it can be done.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, no, I agree with you with that emotional regulation. Um, Cathy, thank you ever so much for coming on to the podcast. We will make sure that all of your um contacts and details are in the show notes so people can catch you and be part of what's going on, can access all the amazing things that you're doing at the moment, your book, all those kind of things, wish you loads of look luck with the book and the haven. Sounds brilliant. Um, but thank you ever so much for coming on. Thank you. Thank you for having me.