The Untypical Parent™ Podcast
Welcome to The Untypical Parent™ Podcast where doing things differently is more than okay. I'm here to challenge the norms and open up conversations that go beyond the stereotypical child, parent and family. This is your go to space for neurodivergent families to find your their backup team—the people who get it. We were never meant to go it alone! We’ll be exploring a wide range of topics, because every family is unique and there’s no one box fits all when it comes to families.
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The Untypical Parent™ Podcast
Is A Good Enough Parent, Good Enough?
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Have you ever felt overwhelmed by the pressure to be the perfect parent? Take a deep breath – you're not alone, and this conversation might be exactly what you need to hear.
Speech and language therapist Ruth Jones talks with me about the concept of being a "good enough" parent, when I ask her if she is the perfect parent.
We talk about:
• The liberating concept of being a "good enough" parent instead of striving for perfection
• How COVID-19 impacted child development and created challenges in differentiating between pandemic-related delays and neurological differences
• The importance of honouring all forms of communication, not just verbal language
• Why direct autistic communication is often misinterpreted as rudeness rather than a different communication style
• Common misconceptions about speech and language therapy for neurodivergent children
• The value of curiosity when supporting neurodivergent children and understanding behaviours
• Why apologising to your children models important emotional regulation skills
• Ruth's upcoming book on neurodiversity-affirming practice for speech therapists
Whether you're parenting a neurodivergent child, questioning differences in your family, or simply trying to be a more compassionate parent, this conversation will leave you feeling validated and equipped with practical wisdom. Listen now and discover how being "good enough" might actually be the perfect approach to parenting after all.
You can find Ruth here:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RuthJonesSLT
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ruth_jones_slt/
I'm Liz, The Untypical OT. I work with parents and carers in additional needs and neurodivergent families to support them with burnout, mental health and well-being. When parents are supported, everyone benefits.
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And if you'd like to contact me about the podcast and join the mailing list please email me at: contact@untypicalparentpodcast.com
Welcome to the Untypical Parent Podcast, where doing things differently is more than okay. I'm Liz Evans and I am the Untypical OT and I am your host. I'm here to open up conversations that go beyond the stereotypical child, parent and family. This is your go-to space to find your backup team, the people who truly get it, because we were never meant to do this alone. Each week, through a mix of guest interviews and solo episodes, we'll explore a wide range of topics, because every family is unique and there's no one size fits all when it comes to parenting. But before we dive in, if you're enjoying what I share and want to support the podcast, you can buy me a cuppa. You'll find all the links in the show notes. Are you ready? Come join me.
Speaker 1:This podcast episode is proudly sponsored by Something Profound. They create funny t-shirts, mugs and, more specifically, designed for neurodivergent people and those with chronic illnesses, because we all deserve a good laugh. A lovely friend of mine gifted me a mug that says not enough spoons to give a fork, and every time I use it it makes me smile. It's such a great reminder to embrace the chaos with a little bit of humor. Once, grab your own or know a friend who could do with a laugh. Head over to somethingprofoundcouk and use the code L-I-Z-U-O-T. It's case sensitive, so you'll need to use capital letters for your 15% off your order. And don't forget to follow Sam, the founder of Something Profound. You'll find her on Instagram and Facebook at something underscore profound, underscore clothing. If you've got something to say, say it with something profound.
Speaker 1:Today we've got the lovely Ruth Jones joining me on the podcast. Ruth is an independent speech and language therapist working across Wiltshire and Somerset in the UK. Her work involves direct work with individuals, families and education settings. Additionally, she delivers training to therapists and settings and offers clinical supervision to other speech and language therapists. She works primarily with neurodivergent children and young people and those who require additional support to access meaningful opportunities and their education. Ruth believes in child-led and neurodiversity-informed practice and her core values are around acceptance, curiosity and connection. Ruth feels purposeful about using her role to challenge and encourage change in the field of speech and language therapy and more widely within education settings and society to better improve outcomes for neurodivergent individuals.
Speaker 1:Ruth, welcome to the podcast, ruth. Thank you ever so much for joining me on the podcast, the Untypical Parent podcast. It's wonderful to have you with me today. Thanks for having me. I'm excited, it's nice. So we've kind of linked up over the internet so over social media. So for all the negatives that are around social media, actually this is how we've linked up is through social media, and sometimes that's when social media can be totally amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's nice Like that shared values and kind of connections that you can make with people that you would never have met in, you know, like real physical life. So it's great and it's always nice to speak to another fellow kind of health professional as our background. So I'm an occupational therapist and speak and Ruth, as you know from the intro, is a speech and language therapist. We always start this series, ruth, with the same question to everybody. I don't even give them a chance to get in and too comfy. The first question I ask everybody is are you the perfect parent, ruth?
Speaker 2:You know what I've been thinking about this and like listening to your podcast and when people get asked, and I'm always taken back to some training that I sat in I don't know, probably six, seven years ago, from a clinical psychologist on attachment and she used the phrase. She talked about the, the concept of being a good enough parent, and I was like, when I hear you ask people this question, I'm like there is no perfect parent, but I think we are good enough and so, like I hold on to that and I'm like, yeah, even in those moments where I feel like it's catastrophically going wrong with my kids, I'm like, but I'm doing my best and that is good enough, like you know. So I think that sort of that concept is quite a yeah, sort of a calming and soothing one for parents when you're feeling a bit dysregulated.
Speaker 1:It's funny, isn't it? Because you hear that a lot in the world of attachment is about that being a good enough parent, and you know you're talking about. You know, sometimes when kids are being removed from their parents and stuff like that, it's. I think you'd have to correct me. I went in distance training as well, like you, but I think there was something around the law as well, around parenting, and it's about the.
Speaker 1:The threshold is being good enough, yes, as a parent, um, but funnily enough, that's not a concept a lot of us parents hold. Is being good, we don't? It's not okay to be good enough. We have to be up up high like perfect parent? Yeah, um, and you hear, as you say, you hear spoken about a lot in attachment, the world of attachment and trauma and that kind of thing actually in the everyday life, and I think that's really important. You're the first person to bring that up on the podcast. Is the good enough parent, um, and it's really important that and we don't hear that talked about a lot in general day-to-day parenting no, no, I find a lot of the parents of you know that I support.
Speaker 2:I will be like you are doing your best and this is hard, like it is hard navigating the systems that you're you know that I support. I will be like you are doing your best and this is hard, like it is hard navigating the systems that you're, you know, not built for you and your kids the schooling, the you know, and that's before you're actually even supporting and parenting your child at home. There's all these different things and you know all anyone is ever doing is their best and that is good enough. And I think there's that thing that we just kind of have to hold on to. It doesn't mean we don't need support with it. It doesn't mean we don't need respite. It doesn't mean we don't need that.
Speaker 2:You know community of people around us, whether that's friends, family, other professionals we lean into, the kids teacher. You know a network of other parents that we meet listening to podcasts where you can share experiences and feel validated. But I think, yeah, that's sort of the concept of just being good enough and so I feel like I am good enough and you know, sometimes you just got to say that out loud, yeah, sit with that and hear it and be like, yeah, I am yeah and when you, when you got that piece of information, were you already a parent at that point or did you get that before, so you got that in before?
Speaker 2:yeah, I was actually. I think I was pregnant, um, with my eldest and she's six now. So it was, yeah, it was a while ago. I remember sitting in this school in fact I was definitely pregnant, because now I'm thinking back to it and taking myself into that memory it was in a school hall and we were all sat on like these uncomfortable, like benches, and I was pregnant, so I think I was like even more uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:But attachment is something that often comes up, particularly around like autism, and you know there's there's like a grid called the Coventry grid that looks at the similarities between autism and attachment. And so in my kind of professional experience, it's something that's come up. A lot is like with the presentation of children. Might that be sort of attachment difficulties, might that be autism and and so I think it's something that I've been in multiple trainings about. But that one hit differently because I was sat there going I'm going to be a parent soon and like, oh gosh, you know I want to do the best, the best I can, to be good enough to kind of, yeah, form those secure attachments. And I think, you know, I did the best I could based on the information that I had, and I have a six-year-old who still won't be left anywhere without me.
Speaker 1:So you know, take that as it is, and I wonder whether almost you know the fact that you got that information before you became a parent was actually really important, and it's almost like they could do with putting that into nct classes. You know, forget about birth plans that you never actually get to follow. Actually, what might be a really good thing to talk about in nct class? Are you being good enough?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, like and actual parenting, because I think it's all about, like how to change a nappy and don't get me wrong like that is helpful, isn't it? Like practical advice is very good, but also things like understanding the nervous system and like your child's, like their perspective and how they're, like you know, the different parts of their brain are going to be hitting and when they develop and one of the things I often will talk about with it's usually with staff within schools, but sometimes it's with parents too is the, you know, the concept of this bit at the front of our brains that like controls, our inhibition, our impulses, is like part of our personality and our emotional regulation, like it can still be developing up to 25 to 30 and we're like holding six, seven, eight year olds to account on this thing. That that some 25, 26, 27 year olds don't even have, you know, and I think that stuff would be really helpful as parents. Yeah, help us support our kids in those moments I feel quite strongly about that.
Speaker 1:I think, from a parental perspective, is actually the support we get to be parents. There isn't any. It's, as you say, the nct. It's about the practicalities, it's about the actual birth itself and, as I said, that very rarely goes according to plan um, but actually the day-to-day you know being a parent and what that means and the skills that you might need to be able to do that. No one tells you about it. You have to kind of pick it up along the way. You make it up along the way, you get it wrong and learn along the way. Um, and there's no handbook. I don't. You know, I don't believe there is a kind of oh, this is how you do it, but it it's being able to have those conversations really early on in your parenting I think is really important. And I didn't get that um, you just learn the hard ways, you kind of go along yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I think you know, even once your child's like a little bit older and they're maybe in early years provisions and they're kind of, you know, on that kind of into early experiences of other adults supporting them rather than it just being parents, there's still not lots of support for parents. If you know, it might be like we're noticing some differences, we we'll make a referral and you're like, okay, but what do we like? Like can somebody give me something? And you know, I know some early years settings are incredible at saying so we're going to try this in setting, like you guys can do that at home, that sort of stuff. But I think, yeah, that kind of is the lens, isn't it? I feel so strongly about like how are you viewing the children in front of you? And I think that as professionals, we kind of have this privileged space where it's part of our job to learn to do things differently.
Speaker 2:But as parents, if you don't know where to find that information, like even things like NCT, like that costs money, the financial privilege to attend the courses or buy the books or not work that afternoon to go and go and do, though you know, do the course or whatever it is, I think, yeah, there's a lot um, there's a lot of barriers in front of parents to then learning and understanding about their kids. And I think particularly like, for you know, neurodivergent children, those differences in communicationgent children, those differences in communication styles, like those differences in how they regulate their emotions, their sensory systems, their attention, all of those kinds of things that, yeah, it's just not there and it's something that I think, as therapists, there's like a responsibility that we have. But again, there's still barriers. If you're just one therapist, then you're working with a whole host of you know, huge caseloads like how you can navigate that and do your best, um, and share information.
Speaker 2:But often what parents really would love is just to sit down to really talk about their child, isn't it? Because I think you can. Yeah, like you're like, generic information is great, but what do I do when x doing y? How do I apply this knowledge then?
Speaker 1:yeah, and I think some of the work that I do is around you being able to support parents themselves, is getting to know what they need as a person, because obviously, sometimes, sometimes in neurodivergent families, when you've got neurodivergent children, there are might be some neurodivergence in us as adults, um, but haven't had that support and sometimes don't even know um, and I think you know my piece of work with them is to support parents through that. But it's amazing how quickly, even when we set off with right, we're going to talk about you, we end up back with the kids. Yeah, every time, um, because and that's what happens as parents and I don't give parents a hard time for that but it's amazing how often that will happen. Even when you set off to talk about the parent, you end up back with the children. Yeah, and what the parent, the children need and it's trying to bring the parents back to, yeah, but what do you need?
Speaker 1:yeah what are your needs as a parent? Yeah, what I'm really interested in, ruth as well. Just tell us a little bit about you. So you're a mum. Yes, I am tell us a bit about your family and your setup and who you've got with you yeah, so, um, I have two kids um, who are six and three and like.
Speaker 2:So, life's very full um, I'm um self-employed, so I kind of work my work around the kids and kind of been able to be present to drop them off and pick them up, so I'm really privileged to be able to do that um, before they came along, I worked in residential special schools um for autistic children, um, and, yeah, and then, um, my husband does nothing like what I do. He's like in contaminated land, um, oh, wow, that's a real difference. Yeah, it is. It is very much like he's like the brains of the, like, you know, like he's the scientist, the organized one, and I'm just like the, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know, I don't know how I'd describe myself, but, um, yeah, we have definitely very different career paths and and interests, I suppose um, but I definitely think like, within my parenting um, I take my professional like lens, through which all of the children I support are neurodivergent children. I work in special schools and resource spaces and I support autistic children in mainstream um, and I take all of that into my parenting. I think, and you know, um trying to be good enough with that view, and actually sometimes that's really hard. When I spend all day doing my job to the best of my ability and wanting not just to be good enough as a therapist, wanting to be the best I can be for that child, I get home for my kids. I'm like, yeah, I can't nothing less.
Speaker 1:Now TV on and that's really interesting as well that you say you kind of bring in those strategies from your work and from your professional experience and you know, have you got any diagnosis in your family for your kids? No, okay. So what I was going to say, just bringing that in, is really interesting, isn't that? Actually those techniques and those strategies work across the board for for kids?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely. I think I and you know that's when I get frustrated when I speak to typically education staff and you say, oh, we can't do that because everybody else and I'm like, but everybody else will really benefit. If you start using those visuals to help the understanding of that one child, everybody else will benefit. You know, from a very early age, like for my daughter, they she had like a weekly timetable so she could see she was across two different earlier settings, she could see which day she went where and when was our day off together and done the same for my son.
Speaker 2:But, um, yeah, I think like the, the way that she shows up, you know, um, school kind of mentioned attention and listening and I don't know, like you know jury's out, she's still quite little really to notice any differences. So she's definitely a bit quirky, um, but I think like they're very different and she's very different to my son and I think what we spend a lot of we I spend a lot of time like toying with is like there's the older sibling, younger sibling, there's gender there and also the fact that she was about 14 months old when Covid started. So she struggles socially, she really struggles, like it's taken a long time for her to be confident. She often prefers to have friends with just one person. She struggles in big groups. Um, and you're like, so is that a difference to her peers, like neurologically? Or is that actually something because she didn't have chance to practice those skills at quite a key developmental time?
Speaker 1:um, a lot, ruth. I mean, you're kind of in your work, are you seeing those kids? Kind of, when I think about those kids coming through covid now, and when I think about those kids coming through COVID now and when we think about their communication actually being able to tease out what is that actually? They didn't have those experiences when they were younger.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And what actually, as you say, is something neurological?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I think there is a lot around kind of experience and learning and the impact of COVID on social so I hate the term social skills because I just I struggle with that as a concept but on social communication styles and preferences and differences and also um kind of trauma like, and the impact that that can have on how children show up and actually the the kind of the crossover between that and a neurological difference that was present from birth.
Speaker 2:um, it's kind of that nature nurture thing, isn't it particularly for a lot of children who are now in reception not even reception, probably like more like year one, year two they were very little when the lockdowns happened, um, and so their experience for a good couple of years was not very consistent of being around people. Yeah, so I know, with my little girl, like when I was on maternity leave, I was like off to the groups, I was like I'm gonna network, I'm gonna, you know like, meet people, and so she went everywhere and we did loads of stuff, and then covid hit and suddenly she didn't go anywhere and she, you know, I have a really vivid memory of meeting up with some very good friends of ours and we went for a walk. It was in that time where, you know, like you could go for a walk with people outside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we had to keep a distance and stuff like that yeah.
Speaker 2:And she stood and faced the hedge for two hours. She didn't, she couldn't, she didn't know how to, and like I went over to her and I check in with her and I was doing my like professional parenting in my head. I'm like, I'm being curious. I have no idea what's going on here, like yeah, yeah, I have no idea. Like she would have been what like 18 months to I don't really remember how old she was, but she would have been like younger and you know, we tried, like that irresistible invitation. There was cake, there was balls, there was you know like and just yeah, you know, and now we'd go to their house and she will chat to them and she's more than happy.
Speaker 2:But that has taken years, yeah, um, and even the same like with family members and stuff, like you know, and I think is that, as I say, like is that a neurological difference of social communication and being overwhelmed and not knowing how to navigate it, or is it that those skills weren't there? And now she's getting older, it's getting easier because she's learning the skills, or is she learning the skills to mask? She's getting older? It's getting easier because she's learning the skills, or is she learning the skills to mask the difficulty?
Speaker 2:you know it's really complicated, and then you set yourself in a spin, don't you yeah? You do, yeah, yeah, can you tell I?
Speaker 1:think we never know, do we? In the end? I think it's really difficult sometimes, but and sometimes it kind of comes out in the wash a bit as they get a bit older, you kind of think, okay, well, actually now we're seeing that continuing to be an area that they're finding tricky. Yeah, and I think you know, even from an it perspective, you know we see now those kids coming through with you know delayed motor skills, you know issues around their sensory processing, um, and that's you know from people being locked down in the houses and then not being out and about and not using equipment and playgrounds and all that kind of stuff, and it does have a big impact it does.
Speaker 2:And I find, like I don't like that wait and see, you know, when people are like, oh, just wait and see what happens, but I find myself being like, well, we'll just have to wait and see, you know, because I'm like there is, I think there are probably a lot of children, a lot of parents, who wonder those things and actually, if school aren't coming forward with issues, you kind of just have to wait and see, like as, as you know, if they're in a mainstream setting, as the schooling expectation heightens as they get further into year two, year three, the length of time they've got to sit still, for the length of time they've got to focus for like the amount of time they have to to focus for like the amount of time they have to focus on tasks that they're not interested in, like then, how is they're getting older? Are they navigating that? Because again, that's where that front bit of the brain starts developing to understand. Like, actually, I've got to inhibit those things. Yeah, I want to do, and that's not in a masking way, that's in a neurotypical, developmental way, as opposed to kind of learning, and that's it's.
Speaker 2:It's a real nuance, isn't it, I think? And I think it's quite a complex one, and I think also why diagnostic tools and diagnostic processes need to be really robust particularly, yeah, and to be able to pick out those nuances and know and navigate around that for those assessments.
Speaker 1:And that's really difficult, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, definitely, particularly, like you know, for kids who maybe were 12, 18 months old when all of the lockdown stuff happened, like you know not that happened.
Speaker 2:There are loads of indicators and then, yeah, and then this whole pivotal point in development, social communication, development, particularly like and play development. They weren't kind of they didn't have the, the opportunities for those, you know those things. So, um, I think it definitely has played a part on some of the, the difficulties and the, the differences that we see um in kids in schools, um, yeah, it's an interesting one.
Speaker 1:I'm curious that you know, if I know you're kind of your area of expertise and your niche is definitely around the neurodivergent kids and working alongside their neurodivergent families is what, as a kind of a speech and language therapist, is there something that you really wish that parents um knew more around in relation to communication with neurodivergence? Because, again, we don't get taught that as parents. Yeah, and when we get told our kids are autistic for example, I got told my son was autistic then we know with the diagnostics it's kind of you know, you wait and wait and wait and wait and wait for this diagnosis and you get it and everyone goes right, see you later. Yes, like that's the answer and you're like now I've got that bit of information. What next? We don't often get the what next and I suppose I'm just curious around you know, what do you? What do you wish parents knew when it comes to communication for neurodivergent kids.
Speaker 2:That is a really good one because obviously, like it is such a broad range, isn't it like? I work with some 16 year olds in mainstream doing their gcses and I work with some, you know, seven, eight, nine year olds who are non-speaking, so it's a real broad range. I think, for me as a therapist, in my approach and what I would often talk to parents about is honoring all forms of communication. Yeah, so, whether that is your 16 year old doing their GCSEs who talks really formally and it feels a bit unusual if you're a neurotypical, just honour it Like that's really cool, they have that vocabulary. Equally, if you've got a three-year-old who's non-speaking and they reach and point for something and you know what it is they want, take that as their communication. Don't feel like you've got to shift and change these things, like we have to scaffold communication for those kids. But I've, you know, like I don't. I don't think I could say that, honestly, in my 13 years of working with neurodivergent kids, I've never met a child who does not want to communicate in some form. And it's about honoring the way that they are communicating. Yeah, um, and I think like exploring, exploring communication and what, what is fun for them and what's interesting to them.
Speaker 2:Like I even I did some inset day training just before the easter holiday with the team at a school and you know we were talking about it's a specialist provision, um, for children, neurodivergent children kind of, with more kind of the social, emotional, mental health challenges that show up through neurodivergence. And we're talking about how they come in in the morning. Teenage boys head on the desk and I'm like and so what do you do? And they're like, oh hi, how are you? And I'm like, right, so let's just honor their communication right now, if they've come in and their heads on the desk, your neurotypical teacher head has been like we need to get on with the lesson, like show me you're listening, all of that sort of stuff and I might just honor what's going on in that moment, like something is going on for that individual. They're communicating something.
Speaker 2:So giving them my supervisor, kate, often uses the she's kind of has the phrase which I hold on to a lot is giving them language for their experience. So I think even and that again fits the whole spectrum honor their communication and if they don't have language for that experience, try and give them some. So whether that is your three four-year-old non-speaking child, and you can give them a sign or a symbol, you know, a picture, an object for the things they're trying to communicate. That is language through to your teenager, whose language is probably something a little bit more explicit about how you need to leave them alone for five minutes, you know, but give them some language for that, even if it's like, oh, let's, let's take five. You know, because actually, if they can come in and feel honored, they're gonna that's gonna help regulate their nervous system and they're going to feel safer in those environments. And I think for parents, yeah, honour, and then give some language.
Speaker 1:And I'm just wondering there are a lot of kind of myths, I think, around communication and around neurodivergent communication and styles, and often lots of myths around you as speech and language therapists and what you actually do, along with what we do as like occupational therapists, because no one has a clue a lot of the time about what we do something sensory sometimes if you've got kids, but other than that, are you a bit like a physio, um, but I think for you know, in all the years that I've worked along alongside speech and language therapists, is often there is this thing that you know my son or daughter or young person, child doesn't need a speech language therapist because they can talk and speech and language. If you can't see ruth, if you're on audio, she's just pulled the greatest face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's not letting you down with that one yeah, yeah, and like kids who are discharged or don't have any speech and language needs on their education, health and care plan, but they have communication differences and it doesn't mean they need like one-to-one speech therapy, you know, an hour a week for the rest of their life.
Speaker 2:But I would argue that all neurodivergent individuals need an assessment from a speech and language therapist and that doesn't have to look like a formal assessment of language I actually actively avoid those at all costs if possible but, um, kind of a little dive into their understanding, into their perspective on things and particularly for kind of those lower, medium, low support needs individuals who have spoken language, actually just finding out a bit about how do you tell somebody if your sensory system's on fire and you need to take five if you're you don't understand something that somebody said to you?
Speaker 2:Like, if you feel like there's a bit of miscommunication or you know, so often the one I hear is that like oh, but they're just being like, they're just rude, because actually, like autistic communication particularly is like super direct, okay, and like they're not being rude and actually for some of those who are really empathetic, they would find it really hard to have upset someone just because they were talking in a way that they talk they don't, you know, like it's just, it's just communication, isn't it? And I think like rudeness is such like a social construct and I think actually, like autistic communication is is a bit like a punch in the guts, while also being incredibly like liberating. You know, on the receiving end you're a bit like oh no, I'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:I'd love to just say what I'm thinking but even when I think about, you know, across different cultures, yeah, and the way that they will talk, you know sometimes. You know sometimes the Americans and the way they view our communication. They think we're a bit. You know, we're always apologizing and everything's our fault and we're ever so sorry and we might find americans very blunt. Sometimes I'm being very stereotypical. If there's any americans listening, I am being very stereotypical. I apologize, but it sometimes it's interpreted they might be a little bit more blunt than we are. Um, and it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:You say that, I think, because my son's autistic and he has this wonderful way of cutting through the crap and will just tell me how it is. Um, sometimes it's, it's very direct and to the point. But what I worry for him is that he has become very anxious around checking with me. Now have I upset somebody? And now he constantly worries about what he can say and I'm just like, don't worry about it. Just if that's what you want to say, you go for it and say it.
Speaker 1:We're mindful of other people. But if you're not setting out to be horrible and rude to somebody, but it's, it's that again, it's going back to that social skills training, isn't it that we've got to try and make autistic people fit into the neurotypical way of communicating, um, and actually he's just got a different way of communicating. It's not wrong, he's not horrible, it's just direct um. But he's now super anxious about that and I worry about that for him as a teenager now being very hard on himself and he'll often double check with and he's. He doesn't say things now to people because he's not sure if the offense will be taken by. Because I'll often say to him why didn't you say that? And he goes oh, because I was worried I was going to upset my.
Speaker 1:I might have been being rude and that's not come from me as a family. That's not how we operate, but somehow he's. He's taken that in from society yeah, and his learning is that I have to be really careful with what I say all the time and he worries about that now.
Speaker 2:I think that's it, isn't it. And actually like a speech and language therapist you know, particularly a neuroaffirming, committed therapist would come in and be thinking like okay, so you want to have those interactions and you're not doing them and there's a barrier which is around that anxiety. So how can we look at the driving factors like where's this coming from? Like what experiences have you had where that's gone wrong for you and therefore it's kind of driving that belief in you that I shouldn't say things and then giving some language, like you know, for somebody to be able to advocate, to say something and go? I'm a bit confused by your face. Did I just upset you? I didn't mean to. Or like I'm autistic. You can expect me in our friendship, to sometimes say things in a blunt way. I don't mean to be rude.
Speaker 1:I've seen. If I'm going to be rude, I will tell you yeah, I've seen some people as well. Now adults put on the bottom of their emails it's just a one-liner. I sometimes put it on the bottom of my about being dyslexic, um, but I've seen people do that around their communication styles now as well, which I love, because then I say what to expect yeah, absolutely like.
Speaker 2:It's great, isn't it? Like we probably all had that kind of interaction, whether it's with an adult child, face to face or in an email, where you're a bit taken aback because it isn't a typical way of communicating, whatever. That is, um, and I think it does kind of throw people off a little bit. And actually, if you suddenly had that bit of context, that bit of information, you, it shapes the lens through which you're viewing them, and I think that's the thing is. Then, as a, as a receiver of that autistic communication, for example, you're going oh okay, they're not, they're not trying to be rude, they're actually direct. And when you shift that and flip that narrative and you look through it with a different lens, suddenly like this is incredible, like why do I spend so long thinking of 50 words when I could say five that get me to the same place, like, and yeah, and I don't. You know, I don't think that the wider society is ready for that yet, but I think the little bits that we can do to support those individuals, I think there is much better awareness of autism and ADHD and neurodivergent profiles now, um, but I still think that kind of acceptance is, you know, an ongoing journey, isn't it? And it would be lovely if we could help the future generation of neurodivergent children one be accepting that their communication as it is is good enough, as long as there isn't a barrier, because that's where I think speech therapy can come in is kind of children get signed off as their language is good enough.
Speaker 2:But really there's so much more to communication. And you know, yeah, you might have a program on your EHCP that you know will be delivered by a trained TA or something. But I think they're the bits that, as a therapist, I really struggle seeing in EHTPs, because I know the reality of schools is that for a lot of them they're going to struggle to find the right staff with the right skill set and to deliver that in a meaningful way, because there are loads of off-the-shelf packages that you can buy and support what your child do, understand, their communication. What I think a lot of good one to one TAs or like ELSAs or speech therapists can do is take those resources and then make it meaningful for the individual that you're working with. And I think that's the important part in that, because you know sitting down for autistic children in a group and be like so we're going to talk about. This is not always the most effective way to do things.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely. There'll be parents out there listening, ruth, that you know. I think parents now you know and I think about parents that I've worked with over the years that parents now are much more informed around the support they can get for their kids. I'm going to say can or could, because we all know that there are huge waiting lists and again, you know privilege around that about whether you can afford to go private. You know, a lot of the time when we look through the NHS, we know the NHS is underfunded. We know it's very restricted in what it can deliver and give.
Speaker 1:Parents are becoming much more knowledgeable about getting. You know EHCP to be much more quantified and specified, that they can get things like speech and language and OT into those. But it's still tricky to get therapy. You know speech and language therapy, ot for kids I you know I can't tell you, even though I've now kind of moved into working much more with with parents, I very rarely see children anymore now. Um, the amount of contact I get from parents saying I'm desperate, I I need an ot and if you don't, if you're not doing it, can you tell me someone that does? And I think it's similar for speech yeah, yeah it is.
Speaker 2:It's like I have like really tangible points over the last few years where I I'm now working with children whose parents contacted me before I went off on maternity leave to have my little boy, who's now three, and that like they might have been in touch with me before that, and off on maternity leave to have my little boy, who's now three, and that like they might have been in touch with me before that.
Speaker 2:And I've been saying like no, I'm not taking on new clients at the minute because I'm going to go off on maternity leave and then, even a year later, when I come back from maternity leave, they still haven't found a therapist. Um, I like to think it's because you know, like I'm obviously like so knowledgeable that I know we waited, but the reality is it's not the case. It's just not the case that you know therapists are in short supply. They're in drastically short supply, and I think therapists, like I constantly find myself thinking how could I do this better, like how could I work with parents in a better way? Could there be some sort of like online support, like sessions? But then I think, but I really love to get to know the child and actually be able to. You know, I need to know the children really well to be able to have those nuanced conversations.
Speaker 1:It's so specific to that child, isn't it? It's not going to come out of a textbook. This is what you do, and I think also what is finding those therapists that are neuroaffming, trauma responsive, sensory responsive, all that kind of stuff as well, because it's not just a case of finding any therapist that we know very well. There are some therapists that work in very different ways and that must be a minefield for parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's. It's really difficult, like I often signpost. There's a couple of registers for speech language therapists, like independent speech therapists, um.
Speaker 2:One is ASLTIP, which is A-S-L-T-I-P, and that's the association for speech and language in independent practice. There's another one I'm aware of but I don't know much about yet is Salt Road, where I think they kind of link in therapists with different um. But again, I know that I've got families that will have contacted me and I've said, oh, go and have a look, and then they come back and go there's nobody, yeah, and you're like you know um, and I think it is hard because I think, also like different therapists, like I would say, like in my network of speech therapists, that I know my job is quite a very particular job, that I do like I would say, like in my network of speech therapists, that I know my job is quite a very particular job, that I do like.
Speaker 2:I've got lots of speech therapy colleagues of mine, friends who work, yes, with neurodivergent children, but they also do in mainstream.
Speaker 2:They'll be working with neurotypical children on their, their language and their sentence structure and their speech sounds. And like I don't really even know, like I'm referring my own little boy for speech sound therapy because I'm like I don't know, I do not know what is happening, I do not know all I know is it doesn't sound quite right. Um, so I think there's like there's different kinds of therapists as well, aren't there, you know? And and that in itself is then a mind film, like what am I looking for? And and I, I have some parents contact me whose children are neurodivergent, but what they want to work on is speech sounds, and so I'm like, well, actually that that's I'm not the right therapist for you, like, because I that's not my area of expertise, that's not what I know, and so I think that's you know. Again, like with OT, you have some who are sensory integration practitioners, have done their si training and then others who haven't and would focus solely on functional skills for meaningful occupation you're gonna go both ways.
Speaker 1:You'll get some that are very purist in their si and they are all about the si therapy and the other stuff gets missed out, the kind of more functional stuff and you know I always talk about. It's a, it's a toolbox. You know it depends on the kid that I'm working with will depend on what I pull from that to support them. It's very rarely ever one thing ever. You know it's a whole combination of things.
Speaker 1:Um, and that's, you know I feel for parents in that, in that, that trying to navigate your way around finding the right therapist, not only have you now kind of been through I, I'm now a parent. Then you've discovered you're now a parent of a neurodivergent child. Then usually somewhere along the lines you start to go could I be neurodivergent? Well, in that we'll kind of part that and pin that one to one side for a bit because we don't have time to deal with that bit. And then you think okay, and then you start to learn about okay, well, what does this mean? They've been diagnosed autistic, adhd, dyslexic, whatever. It is okay. Now I've got to drill down into those bits.
Speaker 1:It's like being in a detective yeah and then, and then you've got to work out okay, right, well, how do I now get the support for that? How do I go and find someone to help me with that? Yeah, um, and then you get met with nhs waiting lists and you, they don't meet our threshold.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Rubbishly HCPs, therapists you can't find, or really good therapists that are booked up for the next three years and you can't get near them. Yeah, yeah, and I don't know what the answer is for those parents?
Speaker 2:really no no, and they're the parents that I think on all the time. That, like when I wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning and like, arguably like knowledge is helpful, but I think so often what parents really value is that space to talk about their child. Isn't it like they can read a book? They can, they can attend the course, but but what does that look like in my home with my child?
Speaker 1:what do I actually do with that?
Speaker 2:and and I think that's the bit is like, as a therapist, what I'd often do is like assess a child If they're at home, like assess them at home or at school, kind of take away, reflect on what I've seen, think about what the goals might be, what does the child want to achieve, if they're able to tell us? And then often work alongside parents and in the home with them and their child and work alongside the school, in the classroom. Like you know, you very rarely see me taking a child out of a classroom. Like I'm in the classroom thinking about what this looks like. Again, that's kind of where the functional side comes in, right, um, but it's then about like getting to know that child and then when the parents are sending me like messages going, oh this has just happened, isn't this incredible? Or oh, this has just happened, how do we navigate it?
Speaker 2:You can actually come to that with some meaningful advice because you know the scenarios within which the children and that's where I just I constantly struggle. Like that, maybe there is scope to do something online and support parents, but if you don't have that knowledge, you could be. You know, even if things like their sensory differences what works for one child won't work for another because they're hyposensitive and another one's hypersensitive to a particular sensation, and so all of those things are. So it makes it really hard, I think, for me to see the wood for the trees. Where I'm like, there's all these parents, but what do I actually do to help you know, and how could I do something?
Speaker 1:yeah that's meaningful yeah, I suppose that kind of leads me on to thinking about Ruth, and I think you know kind of how we usually tie up the end of the the podcast is thinking about. I'm interested in two things. I suppose is as a as a parent, you kind of had this golden nugget bit of information that you had before you hit about being good enough, yeah. But because what I'm curious about is, have has that? Have you always kind of felt quite confident as a parent? Or if I was to say to you, ruth, go back to when you were a younger parent, so maybe five, six years ago, um, just as your kind of kids were being born, is there a bit of advice you'd go back and give yourself back then?
Speaker 2:I think that's a really good question. I actually find parenting harder as they get older. I feel like those newborn days where I'm like, right, I can. I can sort of narrow down what the problem is and it's very tangible, and if all else fails, I'll just cuddle you until, yeah, whatever the problem is has gone away. Yeah, I can't find out, and so I think that I think for me, what I would go back and tell myself is that you don't always have the answer and to treat yourself, as well as your kids, with kindness yeah, because it's very easy to treat them with kindness for the most of the time and it's very, very hard to do the same for yourself and not feel like after that moment where you know you've lost it, because things have just been too much, or you're just struggling to get out of them what the problem is, and you find your own frustration taking over. It's very hard to not walk away from that and think, oh god, yeah, I got that wrong yeah and I.
Speaker 2:So I think treating yourself with as much kindness as you treat your kids is you know, and that that is okay, to say sorry, because that in itself is a learning opportunity it's huge that one isn't it.
Speaker 1:I feel really strongly about the sorry one. I say sorry to my kids a lot, and not because, well, I do mess up a lot, but you know, I hope no more than normal parents. But I I'm very quick to say I'm sorry to my kids and say I'm really sorry and and then I can explain a bit about why that might have happened. Yeah, and sometimes it's okay that that's what happened, and sometimes it's not okay and I can say it wasn't okay. Even though I was, you did this and that upset me. It wasn't okay that I then shouted or whatever. And I'm really sorry that I did that?
Speaker 1:yeah, and we have. I feel really strongly about the word sorry with my kids and some parents are very they don't want to apologize because they feel that they're the parent and they they shouldn't have to apologize to their children and if we get it wrong, we should yeah, definitely, and like sorry is not something I've ever made my kids say no.
Speaker 2:I might invite the opportunity, but I would say I mean my daughter's a bit different, um, but like my son at three, he will then go oh sorry, mama, and like I've never made him say sorry. But if he does something by accident, like you know, he will still. He's picked up on that and he's learning that from somewhere. Yeah, and I think that's because he's seeing it in the environment around him. Um, you know, and sometimes I don't say sorry for a while because I know I need to calm myself down, because if I go back in and try to say sorry, I'll be like well, the reason I didn't is because you did this and it all starts over again.
Speaker 2:So you know, sometimes it might be at the end of the day, at bedtime, and I'm like I'm sorry that I shouted at you earlier because of this Like the noise was too much for me. I was trying to do three different jobs. You were both talking. I didn't even know who was saying what each time and that was too much for my body and my brain and what I should have done is maybe step away or, you know, put my earplugs in or whatever, and calmed myself down and regulated myself to then be able to help you guys. And I think that is that's one of the trickiest things about parents, isn't it? Is that actually, particularly with younger kids, that even then they don't understand that like I've tried to be like I just need a minute, I need to walk away, and then they follow you. I tried, I tried.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's when you're in the toilet holding on to the door going no, you can't come, I need to breathe, let me absolutely, and I'm like I'm trying here to calm myself so I can deal with this well, but you're not helping.
Speaker 2:Deep breathing on this other side of the toilet door, tracing some like stars or some like figure of eight, breathing yeah, they do have a an amazing ability to do that, don't they?
Speaker 1:yeah, if you had a top tip, uh, wreath, and it can be like a just a general parenting one, or it might be speech and language therapy related what would be your one top tip if they're, if you had a parent at the moment that was struggling and they're they're parenting and things are tricky and maybe they're worried about their, their kids, uh, communication, some things that they're worried about, that they might have been new diagnosed or those kind of things. What would be your top tip for a parent at the moment?
Speaker 2:I think I think I kind of lean into kindness, as we've just spoken about, but also being curious. Yeah, like be curious about your feelings, like think about that, get curious about what's showing up for you, curious about what's going on with your kids and curious about what's out there that could help, like what services and how you find out information about that. Because through curiosity we learn and so you will. If you're getting curious, you're going to be googling things, you're going to be looking on facebook, on social media, you're going to be listening to podcasts and actually through that curiosity comes the knowledge which hopefully then empowers you to either reach out to the right professionals who can give you help, or to just give the strategies a go at home that you find out about and get to know your child and what works for them. Um, because even professionals don't necessarily know that we have to try, we have to test things out to know what works. So you can do some of that at home through your own curiosity of learning and your own kind of like something's going on here.
Speaker 2:Oh, I wonder what's going on. Let me try that thing. You know, I saw about deep pressure, so I'm going to just give and give some of that. Oh, this all feels a bit difficult. I wonder what's going on. I'm going to try that thing of not talking for a few minutes and just seeing what happens. You know, I think, yeah, so I think, as we said before, the kindness, but I think also like employing curiosity across all the domains of, like you, them, so you know, sort of the systems around you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah I'm just thinking about people might be sitting and listening to you both, or they might be watching us on youtube, because this goes out on youtube as well um, and thinking, oh, I'd like to just know a bit more about brief. Now there's some exciting stuff that I didn't know about until you messaged me just before we came on that you might have a book coming. Yeah, you might you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, you do a bit crazy. I feel like I'm kind of dissociated from it. Yeah, I do so. Um, it's for speech therapists. It's neurodiversity affirming practice of speech therapists, but I think the information in it would be relevant to teachers, occupational therapists. You know, like some of the chapters and the content is very speech and language, but some of it is about like social communication and sensory and like neurodiversity affirming concepts and practice. There's a chapter that's been written by a couple of brilliant contributors Kate and Fatima on like intersectionality. Kateate's also doing a chapter on relationship and sex ed. So there's loads of stuff in there like reflective practice. So I think there's probably quite a bit for other professionals as well as um speech therapists. And then I have social media, like I don't really know why, like I just use it as a bit of a space, so feel free to come and find me on like Instagram, and and we'll put all that in the show notes for everybody so they can find you.
Speaker 1:Ruth, because are you mainly Facebook and Insta? Yeah, I have got.
Speaker 2:TikTok, but I dabble.
Speaker 1:I'd say yeah, me too. Tiktok frightens me. I still think I'm too old for it. Every so often I go in and think no no, too old Liz.
Speaker 2:I don't know what trend is and what this is and like, yeah, hashtags and yeah, like I got a messenger.
Speaker 1:So what about you with TikTok? I feel like I do these. I spend ages trying to do it all and it's all lots of information and then I get like 10 views. And then I watch somebody else who's just basically put a music on, put music on and mouths to it and dances, and they get like 20,000 views and I just think I'm done with that, no, no, I'm going back to Facebook.
Speaker 2:That's it, and I hope that then, through parents and professionals employing some curiosity, they will just happen upon me, which I know is not how the algorithm works.
Speaker 1:Work-wise Ruth, do you work independently with kids now? So you've obviously got your. You work independently, but you work in a school, is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm still independently, so I do some school contracts. So schools I mean, yeah, contract me in um and I go and do my work and then, yeah, sort of one-to-one family work. Um, although most of my children in fact all the kids on my case, though now are in schools or in earlier settings, so I've worked with them from like when they were in like nursery and preschool through they're now getting into like year one and year two. So, yeah, for quite a long time and I wonder as well.
Speaker 1:I'm just thinking about your book because, although you said you know it'd be relevant for speeches and ot, sometimes as well it might be relevant for parents. Just thinking about staying curious, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, knowing what you might want to have in a speech.
Speaker 2:And english therapist well, just as you said, quite good to read it yeah, yeah, because then you're like, are people aware, like what, how do they, how do they work, like, and and what's their, their way of working? Because you know, I feel like quite often, like the algorithm and the bubble in which I live makes me feel like everybody's doing it this way and learning and doing things differently, and it's not the case, um. So, yeah, like it definitely is one that you know people might um find some helpful strategies or some ways of viewing their child and their child's differences, um, and find, yeah, just things they could ask a therapist about, um, or even explore with their therapist. If you've got a therapist you're working with or this or you know, I wonder about your take on this not the kind of book that you kind of wave under a few noses of professionals that you work.
Speaker 1:Oh, have you seen this really good?
Speaker 2:book. Yeah, I'm not necessarily right, but I like to think it's well thought out and takes in the evidence and my working experience and and the voice of the neurodivergent community. So, yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:Hopefully it'll be good enough, good enough, good enough. I'm sure it's gonna be amazing. It sounds amazing. I'm really looking forward to hearing more about it. I suppose that will just lead me to say thank you ever so much, ruth, for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on. It's nice to talk speech and language and ot um. I know there's kind of we've kind of gone through a bit of a up and down and roundabout kind of what things we've spoken about in there, but I think at the crux of that, there's a lot of information in there from Ruth around speech and language therapy, around communication and around neurodivergence and that being your real kind of area of expertise and your niche, the specialism. So thank you ever so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. We'll put all of Ruth's socials and ways to contact her in the show notes so you can reach out to her if you want to, and then it just leaves me to say thank you very much, ruth.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks for having me, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1:You're very welcome. Thank you for listening and choosing to spend your time with me today. If you enjoyed this episode, please do share it with a friend, who might just feel reassured to know that they aren't on their own. And if you've got a moment, a quick rating or review helps others to find the podcast too. If you want to stay in the loop with the podcast updates and all things Untypical OT, just drop me an email and I'd be really happy to add you to the list. Take care and I'll see you soon.