.png)
The Untypical Parent™ Podcast
Welcome to The Untypical Parent™ Podcast where doing things differently is more than okay. I'm here to challenge the norms and open up conversations that go beyond the stereotypical child, parent and family. This is your go to space for neurodivergent families to find your their backup team—the people who get it. We were never meant to go it alone! We’ll be exploring a wide range of topics, because every family is unique and there’s no one box fits all when it comes to families.
Are you ready?
Come join me?
The Untypical Parent™ Podcast
The Consent Compass: Navigating Parenting Beyond "Because I Said So"
Enjoyed the episode, got a suggestion or a question send me a text
What happens when we throw away the parenting rulebook and embrace our authentic, imperfect selves? In this fascinating conversation with Jen Wilson (aka Irregular Jen), we explore the radical idea that perfect parenting is not only impossible—it's not even desirable.
Jen, founder of the International Day of Consent and self-described "rebel with a cause," challenges conventional parenting wisdom with refreshing honesty. "Anyone who claims they're the perfect anything can get lost," they declare early in our discussion, setting the stage for a liberating conversation about parenting beyond rigid authority.
We discuss consent. Far from the limited understanding of consent as merely sexual permission, Jen reveals how consent touches every aspect of family life, from what we eat to how we communicate boundaries.
It's a must listen for parents feeling trapped in cycles of perfectionism or overwhelmed by societal expectations; this episode offers permission to embrace your wonderfully irregular self. After all, what better gift could we give our children than modelling authentic, imperfect humanity?
You can find Jenn on social media;
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/IrregularJennPage
Instagram; https://www.instagram.com/irregularjenn/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@irregularjenn
Jenn also has a new membership launching 'The Irregular Membership', you can find more information here: https://bemore.irregular.org.uk/membership
I'm Liz, The Untypical OT. I work with parents and carers in additional needs and neurodivergent families to support them with burnout, mental health and well-being. When parents are supported, everyone benefits.
🔗 To connect with me, you find all my details on Linktree:
https://linktr.ee/the_untypical_ot
☕ If you’d like to support the podcast, you can buy me a coffee here:
https://buymeacoffee.com/the.untypical.ot
And if you'd like to contact me about the podcast and join the mailing list please email me at: contact@untypicalparentpodcast.com
Welcome to the Untypical Parent Talks podcast, where doing things differently is more than okay. I'm Liz Evans and I'm the Untypical OT and I'm your host, and I'm here to open up conversations that go beyond the stereotypical child, parent and family. This is your go-to space to find your backup team, the people who get it. We were never meant to go it alone. We'll be exploring a wide range of topics because every family is unique and there's no one box that fits all when it comes to family. In this first series, are you the Perfect Parent? And, spoiler alert, there's no such thing. We'll be exploring how we can support our kids, our families and, most importantly, ourselves. Support our kids, our families and, most importantly, ourselves. No judgment, just real talk about meeting everyone's needs without leaving anyone, especially parents, behind. Are you ready? Come join me?
Speaker 1:This podcast episode is proudly sponsored by Something Profound. They create funny t-shirts, mugs and, more specifically, designed for neurodivergent people and those with chronic illnesses, because we all deserve a good laugh. A lovely friend of mine gifted me a mug that says not enough spoons to give a fork, and every time I use it it makes me smile. It's such a great reminder to embrace the chaos with a little bit of humour. Want to grab your own? Or know a friend who could do with a laugh? Head over to somethingprofoundcouk and use the code L-I-Z-U-O-T. It's case sensitive, so you'll need to use capital letters for your 15% off your order. And don't forget to follow Sam, the founder of Something Profound. You'll find her on Instagram and Facebook at something underscore profound underscore clothing. If you've got something to say, say it with something profound.
Speaker 1:Today on the podcast, I'm thrilled to welcome Jen Wilson, a brilliant strategist, facilitator and founder of the International Day of Consent. Jen works with rebels with a cause queer, neurodivergent value, led humans, helping them build consent, led lives, businesses and movements. Their work is all around personal rebellion and collective change, inviting us to disrupt softly, rebel loudly and stay unapologetically irregular. I can't wait to dive into this conversation. Welcome to the podcast, jen. Jen, thank you ever so much for joining me today on the Untypical Parent podcast. My pleasure, it's lovely to have you. I've got with me Jen Wilson, sometimes also known as Irregular Jen and Jen. I start off all my podcasts for this series, which is Are you the Perfect Parent? And by asking that very question. So, jen, are you the perfect parent?
Speaker 2:yes, of course I am. No absolutely perfect answer, jen, absolutely not, I am, and I do. You know what? I've got a big thing about this, which is anyone who says they're the perfect anything, or that they know all the answers to something or they have the one true way and what they say is the right way, can get lost. As far as I'm concerned, that's you trust them.
Speaker 1:I don't trust them.
Speaker 2:When someone says they're perfect, I've got alarm bells going absolutely not, and actually I and I think that that, ironically, you are closer to a perfect parent if you can acknowledge that making mistakes is absolutely, essentially part of it, because making mistakes is how we learn, how else you know?
Speaker 1:no, absolutely I'm not the perfect parent do you think, jen, has that always been the case for you? Have you been always really comfortable with that? Has that kind of come from as soon as you had kids that you thought, actually I know, I don't have to be perfect, or has that kind of happened for you as you've?
Speaker 2:gone through. I mean, I'm in an interesting place because my children, one of them, is almost 29 and the other one is 14. So who I was 29 years ago and who I was 14 years ago obviously still the same person, but you know, I'd learned a lot between the ages of 25 and 40. So I I knew when I was 25, that I wasn't going to be a perfect parent because I was young, I was in an unstable relationship. It wasn't in any sense an ideal situation, but I knew that being a parent was was something that I would. I would learn as I went, and that I would do it in a way that was true for me and in a way that I would. You know. I would just acknowledge. You know it's that poem, isn't it? Am I allowed to swear on your podcast?
Speaker 1:you can swear to a certain degree didn't you, I have to make sure that people are aware. So just to be aware, people might swear I was going to say the F word.
Speaker 2:I won't swear a lot, but it's that phrase, that poem. I think yes, your parents fuck you up. Yeah, that's what they do, you know. So I knew that. I knew that I would make different mistakes than my own parents had made, and I surely have. And my parents weren't bad parents, they weren't brilliant parents. They were just doing their best, like we all do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, funny enough. I was just going to ask you then did that come from your experience of being parented?
Speaker 2:I guess a bit. My parents are very much of a different generation, you know, they're in their late 80s now and they were very much of that sort of grown-up post-war nuclear family traditional values. And I am very, very left-field and queer and irregular and different and quirky. And my mum just holds her head in her hands, bless her and goes what are you going to do next? Yeah, do you know? They despair of me a little bit. They were they. They were loving and kind and caring parents and um, and I certainly learned kindness and forgiveness as kind of core values from from them yeah, and as part of your family now, jen, what, how's your family made up?
Speaker 1:who's that? Who is that kind of? You've got diagnoses in there? Because obviously we've got parents listening that there might be all sorts of diagnoses within their family, diagnosed or undiagnosed.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, well, I, I have an adhd diagnosis. I have some autistic traits. I don't know if I would get a diagnosis. You know, I got diagnosed with ADHD at 50 and I you know the way that, the length of time it takes and the effort it makes and the value it gives you. It's useful getting an ADHD diagnosis from the point of view of being able to get meds, but also from the point of view of and I think this is a thing about diagnoses is I think I'd spent 50 years going what the hell's wrong with me, why why can't I do that, why why am I not able to do that thing that everybody else seems to find so easy? And then it was like oh, that's why, and it was the relief that came with that that was so great about getting a diagnosis.
Speaker 2:And I wouldn't like to speculate about any of my family, apart from my daughter, who's 14, who lives with me now, who is on the pathway for assessment for ADHD and autism and I believe is probably an all-DHD profile, home educated since lockdowns. She was at primary school and she was. She seemed okay, but she was just beginning to get a little bit unhappy and and having problems with friendship groups and that sort of thing, and I I can only speculate what might have happened if lockdown hadn't hadn't kind of interrupted that in the way that it did um, so she never got back after lockdown no, I, and that was I when, when the lockdowns happened, I went oh my god, she's so much happier, she's so much happier, and look at this blooming kid.
Speaker 2:You know who'd been so quiet and sad a lot of the time and she was just so much happier and I just went I'm not putting, I'm not rushing to put her back. And then we found alternatives we she went to a forest school for a while. She presently goes to um, a democratic school in Hebden Bridge. Um, which we'll have to finish this summer, but um, it's been brilliant there. Hebden Bridge learning community um, she goes there three days a week and it's a fantastic environment where very much based on consent actually, which is my big thing, as you know. Yeah, um, you know, it's very much about the young people and the teachers and the parents all being involved in making decisions together and what the the young people learn, in that they're in kind of mixed age groups that are about three years breadth to the group, small groups, and they. They do traditional subjects like maths and English and science and stuff.
Speaker 2:But what? What happens is the young people choose a theme each term or each half term, when they're smaller, and everything is taught in the context of that theme that they're interested in. They choose it specifically themselves, yeah, they. They have a democratic meeting once a week and at the end of each term they sit down and they all vote together in their class group what subject they want to teach. They always put ideas in and they filter it down and they get down to the one that they all agree on um and uh.
Speaker 2:So, for example, there was one term recently when they were doing a theme of of kind of like horror and um, you know scary movies and ghosts and stuff, and you know so in science they were learning about um, the adrenaline and all the kind of physical response, yeah, and linking it all in and then in in english, they were doing, you know, stories that were kind of obviously age appropriate, um, stories of, of that sort of thing you know, and art, art projects that relate to the theme and you know so. So you can get a lot from a theme and cover all kinds of different subjects, but it's something that that the young people have chosen themselves and that they're they're really interested in learning about, and so an amazing school it is an amazing school.
Speaker 2:Before that she was like you know she was getting. She hated English. She absolutely hated English because they took all the joy out of it. Now she's a really voracious reader. She likes to write, she's really imaginative and you know it's because she's allowed to read what she's interested in and write what she's interested in, without the pressure to do a particular type of handwriting in a certain length of time.
Speaker 1:Is that decision easy for you, jen, to make that decision, to take her? Because I've also got a son at school. He's on an ASOS package and lots of people have listened to probably hear me talk about it which is educated other than at school and that decision for me was really hard. But I know I've spoken to other parents that said, actually, do you know what? No, it was just, I knew it was hard but I just did it.
Speaker 2:Whereas I remember it took me forever to get to that decision, I think, if I hadn't been pushed, as I say, by the fact that the lockdowns were happening, yeah, and then there was this moment where they're like started to go back to school, and at that time I won't go into the details, but there were various other bumpy things going on in our life and I just went the instability that's going to come with schools opening and shutting and it all being a bit weird, let's, let's just stick with what we're doing for now, let's try this forest thing, let's do some other things. And so we kind of drifted into it without a great deal of thought. Actually, um, it was a. There was a decision to be made when she turned 11 and could have been going to high school, yeah, um, and that was, that was harder.
Speaker 2:And we are about to hit another bumpy patch, which is she's at, she's, uh, she'd be going into year nine, uh, this september, and her, the school she's at doesn't do a gcse syllabus, it's just doing pre-gcse work with them. So quite what's going to happen next? I'm not sure, and I'm looking at all of the ehcpo to us, all of that stuff, possibilities, and trying to weigh it up, because, with the best will in the world, I'm not a teacher. Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for unschooling. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and that principle that I was just talking about in her school of encouraging young people to learn to be curious, to want to find out about the world and to learn what they're interested in. I think there's masses of value in that. However, you know, we also have to operate inside a world that values particular types of qualifications.
Speaker 1:And it's so hard, isn't it because I always have this conversation with my son? Because he'll just say to me he's very interest-led and he'll just, but very, very good at maths, very good at english. And then just goes to me he's very interest-led and he'll just but very, very good at maths, very good at english. And then just goes to me but what's the point? Yeah, I don't want to, I'm not going to do anything to do with that when I'm older. So what's the point? And I want to learn it. And I keep saying I know that, but we just need to pass it. Yeah, get to the next step.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I think it's that and and you know so when I, when I'm talking consent, there's a big thing for me about. I think, for the most part, our children and young people are are certainly by school and by traditional parenting, they're not given a great deal of agency. You know, we are expected to be accountable for our children, which is appropriate with the adults they're the children, especially when they're small. Um, but for me, I I really want my kids to learn to become accountable for themselves, learn to use their agency, learn to take responsibility for themselves, because that's what goes with with having freedom and and choice and deciding how you want to show up in the world. That's, that's an the most important part of growing up.
Speaker 2:And and if we just decide stuff for our kids and put them through a system without ever questioning anything and let authorities, who know better because they're the authorities and the experts tell us what's right for our kids, I'm not, I kind of. I'm naturally a questioner. I am a regular gen for a reason, you know. I'm curious, I'm queer, I'm questioning things and I'm going. Really, it goes back to that thing. There's no one true way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and it's not at all.
Speaker 2:You know it's really how it is.
Speaker 1:When you say consent, can you talk to us a bit about what you mean by consent, because people might have quite a narrow view of what consent means. They might have a very specific view about what consent is.
Speaker 2:And actually it could be a lot bigger than that, and I'm just in your words. Thank you, yeah. So I, as I say I I'm, consent is my thing. I'm the founder of the international day of consent. Which day is that? Jen tell us? It's 30th of November every year, and I founded it in 2018, and when I I'm stymied because when I say the word consent, it creates an instant misunderstanding.
Speaker 2:People think I'm talking about sex. I am not shy of talking about sex and obviously sex is an environment where consent is really important. However, consent is a part of every single aspect of our everyday lives, and I think that the other place that people encounter consent as a word is do you consent to cookies on this website? Or do you consent to give your data protection Ticker box yes? So we have this kind of yes means yes, no means no tick box kind of an understanding of what consent is, and that's not how I see it at all. As I said to you before, I see consent as being about our agency and our accountability and the choices that we make and how we show up in the world. So my working definition of consent is that it's a practice for connection whereby everyone who is directly involved or impacted by a decision, by the consent that's going on, is comfortable enough and secure enough to continue. Yeah, now to continue is really important because it's live.
Speaker 2:You know, consent is not this one off thing, it's optical and often this is often how it's taught in. Sexual consent is taught in schools as a sort of gatekeeper model, where someone has the consent and someone wants the consent and there's this. It's like this obstacle to get through and once you've got it, it's a green light to continue with whatever. Yes, for me, that's hugely problematic. Whether we're talking about sex, or whether we're talking about agreeing to go to school, agreeing to eat particular foods, agreeing to go to sleep at a certain time, whatever it is we're agreeing to change your mind. Context shifts. What you agree to when you're seven years old and what you agree to when you're 17, you're both technically a child completely different context, yeah, yeah, completely. How you parent a 17 year old or 29 year old and how you parent a 14 year old or a four year old, completely different. So so you can't see that as this one off transaction thing is very much a thing that you practice, and the other thing I think that's really important about consent is that it operates on on the level of the consent you give yourself, the permission you give yourself on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2:You know all those times you go I've got to do this, I have to do this, I must do that or I should ah, the should word do the other, or because of the rules of the world around us, I can't possibly do that. People like me aren't allowed to do that. It's not okay for me to do that. I can't possibly do that. People like me aren't allowed to do that. It's not okay for me to do that. I can't show up that way.
Speaker 2:And all of that is learned from the, the system that we're in, and that system is hierarchical, it's quite coercive, it's got lots of privilege and power structures inside it. So what we agree to in our own brains is influenced by what we've learned from society, and actually I think vice versa. So I think that when we question things and go well, actually, no, that's not OK for me, I'm going to do it differently and show up in the world doing things like going actually no, mainstream school is not right for my child, or no, that teacher that says they know best doesn't know my child's needs correctly or whatever it is we're resisting that is standard and mainstream and normal is actually a little bit of pushing back against that oppressive culture and asking for something kinder and more consensual and more comfortable and safe for all of us and that can be really hard to do because when I'm hearing you talk I'm thinking I am, for once, a bit I am a people pleaser.
Speaker 1:I'll admit that, um, you know, and I will mask, mask and I can imagine you know lots of that around. The consent stuff is actually when you feel like you don't have that agency, is that actually those mechanisms will kick in, that you become that people pleasing kind of person that you begin to mask, and we all know the dangers of masking and what that does to our mental health long term. Yes, absolutely. I never really thought around that about in relation to consent.
Speaker 2:That's really interesting yeah, and and, of course, those cultural beliefs and those sort of deeply ingrained things we've learned about ourselves from a very, very beginning of our lives right through to you know, getting a diagnosis at 50 really peeled back layers for me of what was possible. And so, yeah, I think that that really for me, when I advocate for consent, when I talk about the International Day of Consent, what I'm trying to unlock for people is that we all have agency, that we all have agency, that we are all capable of deciding things, and sometimes we don't let ourselves make those choices because we've let this insidious belief system limit us in some ways and we are capable of going. Hang on a minute, not necessarily yes or no, but just hang on a minute. I don't know if I really know what I think about this. I don't know for sure exactly if I've got, and then and then I my.
Speaker 2:My working model is a thing I call the consent compass. So at the center of the consent compass is you with your agency, that's you making choices, uh, making decisions, your decisions. The outside of the consent compass is you with your agency, that's you making choices, making decisions, your decisions. The outside of the consent compass is your accountability and the two are ideally in balance. So obviously small children don't have much agency, nor do they have a lot of accountability. We as the adults, carry that accountability for them. As you get older, your agency and accountability should develop kind of like together.
Speaker 2:And where we have problems with consent is where people have a lot of a lot of agency and aren't fully behaving in an accountable way for their own behavior, yeah, or they're shouldering more accountability than they should be for the amount of agency they've got in a situation. Those imbalances are really really make things wonky. The compass model is always pointing towards consent, towards connection, towards that place where everyone feels safe enough, everyone feels secure enough to keep going ongoing. Everyone feels secure enough to keep going ongoing. And then the points on the compass, and it's not about moving towards any one of them. It's more about being mindful of all these four things as you navigate your way through decisions and moral conundrums and work out what's right or wrong from your perspective. The four points on the compass are the context, so that's the edges, the boundaries, the limits of the situation, the beginning and the end of the agreement, the context that you're in for this particular piece of consent that you're navigating at any one time.
Speaker 2:Then there's curiosity, which is about informed consent. But informed consent is complex because you don't know what you don't know. Yeah, what am I agreeing to you? Not know what you don't know, until you suddenly find yourself in a situation where you go, ah, I don't know what I'm doing. And then you're like, ah, I need to find stuff out. So curiosity is the next one.
Speaker 2:The third one is communication, and it's that, rather than explicit or enthusiastic, consent is a thing that it's. Those are useful things to talk about when you're discussing sex education, for example, about when you're discussing sex education, for example. But for me it's about communication, because sometimes consent is implied and sometimes that's okay. Like you know, we, we we've got on this zoom call to record this podcast and we've talked about some of what's okay and some of what isn't. But then we got part way in it and I went, oh, is it all right to swear? And you said, well, yes, a little bit, you know. So that's the communication bit. It's like, oh, we're working out what we understand the rules are of this particular navigation by communicating as we go. And then the fourth one is change. Is that the fact that it can change, it can be reversed. You know I agreed, but now I disagree. Yeah, that's simple. It can be a slight course correction or an adjustment rather than a full on yes or no. It could be a yes but or a yes, but actually now I'm feeling differently, you know differently, you know, you know so that those four pieces um context, communication, curiosity and change, the four c's, there are the, the ways that that we could navigate that those consent-based decisions so
Speaker 2:that's the model that I use, um and I and I use it, um in my work as a coach for individuals, as a relationship coach, as a coach for businesses. At the moment, I'm doing a lot of work with entrepreneurs and businesses around what consent based practices look like in entrepreneurialism and in business. You know and it's more than just having unsubscribe on your email list. You know and it's more than just having unsubscribe on your email list how you parent can be applied to how I look after my dogs, can be applied to how I treat myself, the permission I give myself, as I said before, can be applied to how I relate to government. You know, it's, it's all right across all of those things because I'm really interested in the parenting bit.
Speaker 1:You kind of just touched on it then. I'm really interested in the parenting bit and around consent and consent for our kids. You know that our kids can give consent for things to happen and I'm, you know, being devil's advocate here, jen. You know some people would think that might be well actually just gives them free reign to do whatever they want. They can consent when they like and they can take it away when they like. How am I meant to parent that? And I can hear that might be in the background for people.
Speaker 1:So I'm just kind of wondering if I can drop that one in there for you to talk a bit around how that works in real life as a parent, when we are trying to support our kids to be able to give their consent in a way that is real and true for them and enables them to grow up to be adults that can make those decisions and be themselves. That maybe you or I or maybe for me. I can't talk for you but for me. You know that I didn't get that as a kid. It was very much. I had a dad. That was very much you do, because I say, yes, that's because I said so yeah yeah, can I, no, you can't why?
Speaker 1:because I said so yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, what do we teach our kids when we do that? You know what? What are we saying to them? What we're teaching them is that of that an authority figure can say because I said so and expect compliance from us. That's what we're teaching them when we demonstrate, um, and whereas, if, if you can equip your children with agency, um, and you know and say I'd like you to do this now or will you do that now, um, then you are, you are helping them to learn how to use their agency.
Speaker 2:The tricky bit is, especially with young children, that of course, they're going to, in theory, they're going to say I want all the biscuits. No, I won't eat any of the things. No, I'm going to go outside without my coat on, etc. And I mean, it's up to you where you hold your boundaries around. That you, you know, and go. Well, ok, if you're not willing to put your coat on, then I'm not going to take you outside, because I don't want you to get cold and I don't, and I'm not OK with that. If you'd like to go outside, then you're going to have to put your coat on. Which is it going to be? You know, yeah to be. You know, yeah, um, and I mean, you could end up in a situation where you go right, well, you know you kind of, you have to be able to enact the boundary. You can't put a boundary in place. That's, that's fake.
Speaker 2:So if you're going to say to your child, you know, if you don't put your shoes on, we're not going to school, um, or you know, you know, don't say that, go right, well, you're going to school with or without your shoes. Take them to school without their shoes. I bet you they'll only do it once. Do you know what I mean? You know, actually, when you give children agency and accountability, um, then they begin to see the the of their own actions. So you take eating lots of chocolate.
Speaker 2:Actually, when children are given free range to eat what they want, they will perhaps make themselves sick the first time, but they probably won't keep on doing it because they feel horrible and they don't want to feel horrible and they will want to eat something a bit healthier after a while. You know so. So I think we tend to leap to this protective place where we go. I know better. It's my, my responsibility to tell them what to do, and it does take longer in the short term to navigate decisions with you, with your child, if you do it in this consensual way. But as they get older, what you're, what you then have, is a young person who understands the accountability of their actions and that feels like the real key bit.
Speaker 1:Isn't it that accountability and it's not just that they can go, I can do whatever I like, actually. Okay, you've got to be very boundaried about it, yeah, so like.
Speaker 2:So I can say to my 14 year old I will you help me with this? And she can go. I don't want to and go, well, okay, but I'm, I'm doing this and this and this and this today, and if you could just help me with this one thing, then I won't be quite so tired and we can have a better day. You know, and we, you know, or? And she'll be like, oh well, when you put it that way, I can see.
Speaker 2:I could see that my small contribution would make us both have a better day. Or also, the other thing that you can do with young people is kind of go, they want something, I need a different thing. Can we find a solution together? Yeah, these are my requirements, those are your requirements. Yeah, you know this. These are my requirements, those are your requirements. Let's try and find a compromise together where you know OK, you want to listen to loud music, I want to do this work in peace. Could you listen to the loud music with your headphones this time? Great. Could you listen to the loud music in your room for a while? Great. You know there are. There are solutions to be found instead of going shut up, turn the music off and just you know like which is which is a quick solution but is not teaching them yeah, that agency and accountability.
Speaker 1:And then I suppose there's another bit of your you were talking about. Is that communication, isn't it? So you, you know it's that agency, but and that consent, but it's accountability, and then actually it's that agency and that consent, but it's accountability, and then actually it's communication.
Speaker 2:All of those things. In practice it's the context, you know. Sometimes them listening to loud music while I'm doing something is great, you know. Put the loud music on. I'll dance around the kitchen while I'm cooking the tea Great, lovely, you know. And other times it's not.
Speaker 1:Sometimes the loud music, is okay for a while, but then I've changed my mind and I want to listen to something else you know that's what song they're playing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Yes, you can listen to loud music, but only if it's this. Um, yeah, all of that can you know? All of those are that the compass is kind of really a toolkit for helping remind you of what the strategies and the aspects of this might be, to help you navigate those decisions really. Um, yeah, it is time consuming and it is unnatural if you're new to it and if you weren't parented that way yourself, which most of us have, most of us weren't to be honest, no, no certainly I'm in my 50s.
Speaker 2:I know very few people my age were parented that way.
Speaker 1:But um, and I always said that with kind of love for my dad, because I think you know my dad it was, it was the way that he was brought up. So it's it. They didn't know any different.
Speaker 2:And I often say with parents you know, we can only do as well as we can with what we know at the time, yeah, and then when we know better, we go and do better yeah, and, and I guess there's a thing here as well about um, because one of the things that the other things that I talk about a lot of course is is my queerness, my gender queerness, and I know that um, especially actually for uh, autistic and neurodivergent children, yeah, gender questioning and and queerness is a thing that can come up much more readily than for holistic kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, because they're such inquisitive, curious, amazing minds, basically, and with that I think that we can learn a lot from our children sometimes as well, and not go well, I know best and because I said so and because that's how it was in my day. But actually what if your kids have got something to show you that you can be curious about and that you can be open to and you can explore with them and not just go no, it isn't, or, you know, not be black and white about it. You know, go on the journey with them, try and find that, keep finding that common ground with them through things like that, and that can be tricky sometimes as a parent, isn't it, I think?
Speaker 1:because you'd often place yourself, knowingly or unknowingly, in that oracle position of I know everything, and when your kids are starting to come and talk to you about things that you don't know very much about, you can feel frightened by that, panicked by that, and sometimes, when we get frightened and panic, we shut things down rather than go at like you talk about being curious that you talk to me more about that.
Speaker 1:You know, I remember my boys starting to talk about Andrew Tate in my house and I had no idea who he was and I've got two boys and I was quite worried by that and when I found out what it was about, my immediate reaction was to stop it, slam it down. You're not going anywhere near that. But what we did was we had conversations around it and they wanted to show me things about it and I watched it with them and we talked about it and I talked about how it made me feel as a person, as a woman, how it made me feel, why I was worried about things, and we found a way through that. But I could have gone down a route of I'm not having that in my house, and we know, and I know that when you shut things down like that, it will happen anyway.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it will just go covertly for a bit. I mean, when my, when my older one was very small, um, he became completely obsessed with cars. And the reason he became completely obsessed with cars was because people, other people, gifted him boy toys. You know, they went here, have cars, have guns, have cars, have guns, have cars, have guns and fighty things and hitty things. And I took no interest in the guns, I didn't take them away or say you couldn't play with them, I just went, you know whatever boring. And then when he played with the cars, I took an interest in it when he was small. That directed we went well, my mummy's not interested in in in playing with me with this, but she's interested in playing me with that. So, let's let's talk about that and and developed to an absolute.
Speaker 2:Well, it was his special interest for a while, um, a passion for cars. That is still still a thing that he has somewhat, and and so that's that's a thing is just taking, and taking an interest in it doesn't necessarily mean they'll develop a passion for it. But, um, and especially if it's something that you've got a problem with and that you've got some boundaries around and that you find harmful or worrying or scary or whatever it is. Um, if you can have honest conversations with them about that and give them their agency and accountability around it and they can see how the those opinions or behaviors or things might hurt someone that they care about, then they're far more likely to come around, whereas if you go, that's banned. You just make it really. You know, I want it. Yeah, yeah, they want it, don't they? They want even more of that. Yeah, it's really upsetting them. Oh, all right, let's try it. Yeah, of course, um, so, yeah, um, and I I mean I talk a lot about allyship in my work as well, and it is for me there's an awful lot of people who worry about cancel culture and that sort of thing and wokeness and all that worry have so many times been in situations where someone speaks up, say, uh, with questions about women's safety in spaces, and they say something clumsy.
Speaker 2:That's misunderstanding, that's just, you know, not thought through, because they're curious and they're trying to work something out and they're slammed down for transphobia by someone who's like going, you can't say that, and then they go and and they entrench in a position, whereas if you can meet that question with empathy and curiosity and and try to go oh, hang on. Well, I don't see it quite like you're seeing it right now. The way I see it is like this my experience is that I know.
Speaker 1:I love that I've heard people have this experience, you know and question their logic and just gently, without telling them they're wrong, ever and I love that, because I've seen your stuff at the moment as well out on um, on Facebook and on your socials and stuff and you talk about calling people in rather than calling people out. Yes, and I think that even works with our kids. That doesn't it as well? You know, sometimes we we call our kids out on stuff and actually it's about how can we call them in and I love that. That. That kind of reframing of that. That's really hit home for me and I love it.
Speaker 2:I mean a lot of that learning along the way for me has come through a lot of listening to Brené Brown, actually.
Speaker 1:I love Brené Brown.
Speaker 2:But around shame and blame. You know, in the because I said so school of parenting is I'm right, you're wrong, this is, this is good, that is bad. This is how to be a good person. That is being you're a naughty boy, you're a naughty girl, you've done it wrong. That kind of teaching. Well, you think about the times. You're you shame, you feel blamed, you feel rage, you feel like you know f you about it, don't you? You're kind of like there's nowhere to go from. Yeah, yeah, it boxes you in, yeah, whereas if you go, oh, I don't like the way you, I don't like, I don't feel the same way you do about that. I don't like the way you said that I'm struggling with that, especially if it's with your kids.
Speaker 2:One of the things I say to mine sometimes is I know that you're brilliant and I know that you're clever and that you're funny and that you're you know all of these things that I know about you because I know you know me, mum, and I love you and it and I'm. When you say that thing, or when you're interested in that thing, or when you tell me about the other, that doesn't sit well with me because it doesn't sound like you. It sounds like you know where are you getting that from, because it doesn't sound authentic to me and like can you help me understand where that's coming from? And by doing that, you are literally calling them in, you are. You are meeting them where they are, instead of boxing them off and saying you're wrong, you've done it wrong, you're naughty, you're bad. They're only just going to shut down in shame and and be angry with you from nowhere to go and the power of shame is so huge, isn't it?
Speaker 1:you know, whether we're kids or whether we're adults. You know, I think I hate that feeling of shame, which is different to guilt. You know, guilt can be used in a good way. Shame is something different.
Speaker 2:The easy way to tell the difference between the two, I think, is shame is like you are bad, whereas guilt is you've done something bad.
Speaker 1:Generally speaking, it's one's about the behavior and the other is about the person and, let's face it, we all make mistakes, so we are going to do things in our life that are not, the. They're not great, and we can feel guilty about that and think and next time I'm going to do that differently. Whereas you say, shame is very different and you get a toxic shame and all sorts of stuff that goes along with shame, that's really very much and, and I think, really come back to that thing that we were saying before.
Speaker 2:You know where we started with. Perfect parent is. If you do say, because I said so and you do go, you're naughty at your child. For god's sake, don't beat yourself up about it. You know that's how. If that's how you were parented, it's really hard to unlearn. Be kind to yourself about the times you lost it. Yeah, and then be accountable to yourself and your kid.
Speaker 2:I, I have occasionally shouted at my daughter and she shuts down, she melts down, she does the whole neurodivergent response and I go oh, fucker, I've, I've really messed up, because I can see her hurting now, yeah, and, and I'm not afraid to go, I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry that I did it, that I talked to you that way. No, but here, but I was angry. No, no, no, I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have spoken to you that way. Yeah, and when they're re-regulated and when they're calm, you can then go. I got angry and I and I, and I'm sorry that it came out that way, but I I felt angry because I was frustrated because this was happening. Can we find a solution together?
Speaker 1:And that's another thing, isn't it? That's not easy for parents is being able to go I'm sorry, I messed up. Yeah, and I think it's really important for our kids to see that. You know, I practice that a lot with my kids saying sorry, so that they know I'm not perfect, I'm not perfect, I messed up. You know I made a mistake or I wasn't feeling great that day, or this had happened or that happened. But, like you say, but in that moment, because we do lose it, things happen that you hold your hands up and say I'm really sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that kind of honesty and that kind of accountability is modelling, something I think really important. Yeah, you know, and I think that when our young people see us do that, it really really helps them to be able to do that with us and with other people in their life them to be able to do that with us and with other people in their life.
Speaker 2:And you know, the one of the things I've absolutely um, both my kids understand is I don't mind if you make a mistake. I mind if you're dishonest and you hide it from me and you lie to me about it, that I will lose my temper. About whatever the mistake is, it doesn't matter how bad it is. Yeah, but, but please don't hide it from me, please don't make it worse by pretending it's not happening. Yeah and um, for the most part, for the most part, they take that on board. Certainly, when it's important, they take that on board, and it means that when it comes back to things like sexual consent, actually it means that they know they can talk to you about that stuff. Yeah, yeah, they know they can bring their fears and their vulnerabilities and their mistakes to you to help them through it, even if they've messed up and hurt someone. That's really valuable, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm just thinking, Jen, as we're kind of coming towards the end if you were to go back there's probably two questions in it but if you were to go back and either give yourself a bit of advice when you're younger days or there's a parent out there at the moment that's really struggling with parenting in an additional needs family, have you got a kind of like a top tip or a little bit of advice that you think would make, would have made a difference to you, possibly when in your, in your younger years?
Speaker 2:um, I think, um, I think maybe really leaning into that, it's OK, your parents fuck you up, that's what they do, please, and really leaning into that forgiveness and going, it's all right, we're all learning, we're all doing our best. I think that would be one thing and I think the other thing would be, um, practice a pause. Don't have to know in this exact right moment you might not have the answer right now that your child is demanding that, an educator is demanding that, someone is demanding an answer right now. And the most, most powerful, most important thing is to be able to go.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure I need some time. I need a little moment here, and obviously the length of time is appropriate to whatever it is, yeah, but nearly everything. There is space to go right for a moment at least before we leap to a decision and an action and a choice. Um, so I I think that just pause and give yourself a little bit of grace, give yourself a little bit of permission and kindness and empathy and go. This is hard, this is hard. Nobody taught you how to do this. Chances are, if they did teach you how to do it, they taught you from their perspective and it's hurt you as well as learn, taught you things. So be kind to yourself, have a little pause and know that whatever you decide might not be perfect, but it's but.
Speaker 1:It's you doing your best and that's okay I suppose what I kind of wanted to bring it to get to kind of bring it together at the end there Jen is thinking about. You know you are called a regular Jen and you know which. Oh, I would get quite excited because it was. I feel like it fits with that untypical parent bit and for me, you know, I talk a lot with parents about being able to be them and step back into being them and often as parents we lose ourselves being a parent, whether we're in additional needs, families or not. Yeah, we.
Speaker 1:I mean I remember and I talk about this as a story that you know I remember somebody asking me what is it you enjoy? And I thought I don't know. I don't know what I enjoy anymore. I'm certainly not doing it if whatever it is, I'm not, but I don't know anymore and I think we lose ourselves in that and you know, and it can be years and years before we get back to kind of feeling who we are. And then all sorts of things have happened in our lives and I know you do a lot of work with people, jen, and just I wondered if we could tell people a bit about what the work that you know, the work that you do or might be coming up and if they wanted to work with you, what kind of things that you do that might support some of those parents. There might be some parents out there thinking I need to be in Jen's life yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean you, you've kind of hit the nail on the head there, really. In so much, in so much as I'll be, I'll be publishing my book later in the year, probably, um, probably this autumn. I'm hoping in advance of the day of consent in November, which is the irregular way. And the thing about the irregular way is it is about saying no to normal and saying you don't have to fit in, you don't have to do as you're told, you don't have to follow the rules, you don't have to break the rules either. You know you are allowed to follow the rules if that's what you want to do.
Speaker 2:Um, but like, yeah, that giving yourself permission to really be your most authentic self and to be as odd and irregular and quirky and weird and different and unique and whatever you are as you are, is so such a relief when you do it, and when you do it you also model that for your kids and for other people around you. You give everyone else permission to to be a bit weird and to not necessarily do it exactly by the book, by showing up like that in the world, and that is so important and so powerful. There's such a lot of pressure on all of us, but especially on children and young people, to fit in, to fit in, um, but you, you can never fit in by trying and masking and and trying to be a square peg in a round hole. What you really want to be doing is going out in the world in your own wibbly wobbly way, shaping it around you and making space for all of that weirdness and all of that irregularity and all of the possibilities that are there for you, for the people that you care about, for your work, for your life, for your business.
Speaker 2:Joining my new membership, which is about supporting people in a low key way with like webinars and support around seeing the world this way and encouraging that kind of way of thinking. You know, in all those different ways and the programs that I run. It is about exploring possibility, saying no, normal, what even is normal I haven't met it yet and going it's all right to do it differently and and and. When you do step off that standard track and the regular way of doing things and you start to go, I don't know where I'm going now because there's no rules out here and it's all a bit wibbly, wobbly and ah it's. I provide a space to sort of help you with the consent, compass and other things to sort of steer your authentic way through life, through work, through relationships, to find what's what's what's your shape. It's not do it like me, it's do it like you and it's not just neurodivergent people, is it?
Speaker 1:oh god? No, no, no I work.
Speaker 2:I work a lot with with neurodivergent people, because, you know, a lot of neurodivergent people relate to that kind of irregularity and not normalness. I work a lot with people who are queer I'm gender, genderqueer and queer myself but I also work a lot with people who are, who are just people who are change makers. Yeah, people who want to show up in the world and make a difference, make a bit of an impact. People who are struggling with, as you said, people pleasing or over givers there's a lot of over givers out there um, people who want to make change in the world and they're just giving and giving and giving and giving and not actually applying this to yourself. Yeah, you can't liberate the world unless you liberate yourself as part of it. So, um, all of those, any, all of those different kinds of people, it's really about sharing those values.
Speaker 1:It's really, you know, for me mine's come around my diagnosis about being finding out my brain is dyslexic, um, and actually knowing why it doesn't thinks in different ways, um, but actually it's been something really exciting about that and really being able to lean into that, and that sounds a lot about what you do yes, being okay with that and wheeling into it and go do you know what this is?
Speaker 2:this is me and I'm okay with that yeah, yeah, totally just giving yourself that consent, that's that permission to really fully be yourself and and to not let judgment and tradition and old-fashioned ways of doing things to limit you, but actually to live the life that you really want, the life that you really choose, and know that by doing that you're not being selfish, you're actually shaping a world that we all need, because we all need that. That freedom's not about choosing what I want and to hell with anyone else. It's about choosing what I want because I'm blazing a trail that frees up things for everyone to come with me. It's about that consent piece of building spaces that are safe enough and secure enough and comfortable enough for us all together.
Speaker 1:About building community not doing it and then harming people on the way it's about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you talk about it in the way that you're doing it you know somebody, somebody said to me the other day about my business coaching that I'm like the Jiminy cricket of the business world, like a like, a sort of conscience on your shoulder, of like. But that moment when you're going, oh, this feels a bit wrong. I'm not.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing. You've got jen shut sat on your shoulder and and I'm not judging.
Speaker 2:I'm not sitting there judging you. No, I'm sitting there helping you work out how you genuinely feel about it and what's right for you inside you. Never mind what the world is telling you, what you know to be right in your heart and soul.
Speaker 1:Jen, I've really enjoyed our chat today. Thank you ever so much for coming on. I will make sure that all Jen's links are in the show notes so that they can find you if they would like to. But thank you ever so much for coming on. As I say, I really appreciate it. It's been really nice talking to you, Jen.
Speaker 2:Thanks Liz, it's been brilliant and good luck to everyone. Stay irregular. Thanks, Jen.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. Whether you were walking the dog, folding laundry or just hiding in the toilet for five minutes peace, and there's no judgement here. I'm glad you chose to spend your time with me today. If you're a parent or a carer of a child with additional needs and you're feeling overwhelmed, burnt out or just like you need a bit of backup, I've got you and I'm here to help you find a way through the tricky stuff. Got you and I'm here to help you find a way through the tricky stuff, like the moments when you feel like you might just run out of steam, so that you can be the parent that you want to be and take care of yourself too.
Speaker 1:If you want to connect, you can find me on all the social media sites Facebook, instagram and LinkedIn where I share more tips, resources and real talk. And hey, if this episode made you laugh out loud or feel a little less alone, why not buy me a coffee? Just click the link in the show notes. It's a small way to show your support and keep this podcast going. Take care of yourself today. You're doing an amazing job.