The Untypical Parent™ Podcast
Welcome to The Untypical Parent™ Podcast where doing things differently is more than okay. I'm here to challenge the norms and open up conversations that go beyond the stereotypical child, parent and family. This is your go to space for additional needs families to find your their backup team—the people who get it. We were never meant to go it alone! We’ll be exploring a wide range of topics, because every family is unique and there’s no one box fits all when it comes to families.
Are you ready?
Come join me?
The Untypical Parent™ Podcast
Beyond Attendance: Parenting Through EBSA & Neurodivergence
In this episode I talk with Clare Baker from Restlessminds UK.
Clare and I go deep into the raw realities of parenting, neurodivergence, and the often unseen emotional toll of navigating a broken education system. Clare shares her powerful story of becoming a mum at 19, being diagnosed with ADHD later in life, and why she chose to remove her daughter from mainstream education to protect her mental health.
We unpack:
💥 Emotionally Based School Avoidance (EBSA)
💥 Advocacy for SEN children and neurodivergent families
💥 Clare’s experience with ADHD, and raising neurodivergent kids
💥 The problem with current attendance policies and the push for punitive "solutions"
💥 How empowerment starts with informed parenting and challenging outdated systems
Clare also opens up about masking, burnout, and the importance of showing up authentically—as a parent, practitioner, and person. Her lived experience and fierce advocacy are a lifeline for families stuck in survival mode.
🔥 If you're a parent, educator, or practitioner walking the line between compassion and bureaucracy—this episode is essential listening.
You can find Clare here:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/restlessmindsuk
Website: https://restlessmindsuk.org/
I'm Liz, The Untypical OT. I work with parents and carers in additional needs and neurodivergent families to support them with burnout, mental health and well-being. When we support parents, everyone benefits.
🔗 To connect with me, you find all my details on Linktree:
https://linktr.ee/the_untypical_ot
☕ If you’d like to support the podcast, you can buy me a coffee here:
https://buymeacoffee.com/the.untypical.ot
And if you'd like to contact me about the podcast please email at:
contact@untypicalparentpodcast.com
I'm Liz, The Untypical OT. I work with parents and carers in additional needs and neurodivergent families to support them with burnout, mental health and well-being. When parents are supported, everyone benefits.
🔗 To connect with me, you find all my details on Linktree:
https://linktr.ee/the_untypical_ot
☕ If you’d like to support the podcast, you can buy me a coffee here:
https://buymeacoffee.com/the.untypical.ot
And if you'd like to contact me about the podcast and join the mailing list please email me at: contact@untypicalparentpodcast.com
Welcome to the Untypical Parent Talks podcast, where doing things differently is more than okay. I'm Liz Evans and I'm the Untypical OT and I'm your host, and I'm here to open up conversations that go beyond the stereotypical child, parent and family. This is your go-to space to find your backup team, the people who get it. We were never meant to go it alone. We'll be exploring a wide range of topics because every family is unique and there's no one box that fits all when it comes to family. In this first series, are you the Perfect Parent? And, spoiler alert, there's no such thing. We'll be exploring how we can support our kids, our families and, most importantly, ourselves. Support our kids, our families and, most importantly, ourselves. No judgment, just real talk about meeting everyone's needs without leaving anyone, especially parents, behind. Are you ready? Come join me?
Speaker 1:This podcast episode is proudly sponsored by Something Profound. They create funny t-shirts, mugs and, more specifically, designed for neurodivergent people and those with chronic illnesses, because we all deserve a good laugh. A lovely friend of mine gifted me a mug that says not enough spoons to give a fork, and every time I use it it makes me smile. It's such a great reminder to embrace the chaos with a little bit of humour. Want to grab your own? Or know a friend who could do with a laugh? Head over to somethingprofoundcouk and use the code L-I-Z-U-O-T. It's case sensitive, so you'll need to use capital letters for your 15% off your order. And don't forget to follow Sam, the founder of Something Profound. You'll find her on Instagram and Facebook at something. Underscore profound underscore clothing. If you've got something to say, say it with Something Profound.
Speaker 1:I'm delighted to welcome Claire Baker, the founder of Restless Minds UK, to the podcast today. Restless Minds is an online bespoke one-to-one mentoring, one-to-one family support, advice and signposting service specialising in ADHD, autism, anxiety, home education, ebsa and SEMH. Claire's a highly respected, compassionate mentor. She's supported many children, young people and families throughout her career and with a background in counselling, training and a career working within award-winning early intervention organisations. She's a skilled listener and advocate and has a deep understanding of the lived experience of her students and clients. She's knowledgeable around the needs of children with special educational needs and disabilities and the challenges they face, especially in education. Claire, welcome to the OT Talks podcast. Thank you ever so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Delightful to have you here as always, claire and I always have a good chat when we meet up. I think you're in store for a good one today. We're going to go all sorts today, aren't we, claire? We're going to come and pick up the time. I'm going to get the letters right this time. E-b-s-a. This is a dyslexic nightmare when I come to this. Don't you worry, I've met with Claire before.
Speaker 2:I don't you worry. I've met with claire before used the wrong one. Do you know what, though, it's changes? A lot of people don't even like ebsa anymore.
Speaker 1:I was gonna ask this is one of my questions claire so we're gonna cover this in a minute.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we're gonna talk ebsa, which is emotionally based school avoidance, which is terminology that kind of a lot of people will recognize. But, as claire said, things might have changed and are changing. I've got my views on that one anyway, and then we were also going to have a bit of a chat, hopefully Claire, around her own diagnosis and her parenting experiences and her family and find out a bit more about that from Claire as well. So this series is Are you the Perfect Parent? And I start the podcast for everyone. Claire and everyone probably that's listening now now knows our first question that we kick off is always Claire, are you the perfect parent? No, that's the most succinct answer.
Speaker 2:I've had? No, I'm not. I'm absolutely not. But I am a very good parent, and I don't say that with any arrogance. I say that because I see the results of my parenting in my children. So I yeah, I've had a bit of a journey through parenthood. So it's, I was actually single mum for a while, had my son when I was 20. He's now 28. He's a firearms officer, and then I've got yeah yeah, I'm extremely proud of him.
Speaker 2:Went into the police when he was. He applied when he was 17. Got in when he was 18. He's been in there for that long and worked his way up.
Speaker 2:I've got my 18-year-old and I have other son who works in finance up in Canary Wharf and we're brokering, and then my other son who's studying football coaching at uni and my daughter, who didn't go to school, is doing an apprenticeship with childcare and doing incredibly well and not just not just in the reflection of them knowing about my parenting, as in what they're doing. It's who they are. Yeah, who they are I think has been is the biggest reflection on myself and my husband because we are parents. That will never be and that is quite controversial, but we will never be their friend. I never muddy those waters around being my child's friend. I'll be their advocate. Yeah, I will be in their corner. I will fight tooth and nail for them. But we have boundaries and a lot of respect and being in a neuro, neurodivergent household that has taken so much work to get to that stage with them because they're all so very different so when you say you're in a neurodivergent household, claire, tell us who's.
Speaker 1:You don't have to kind of be specific, but kind of what kind of? What kind of neurodivergence have you got in the family?
Speaker 2:Okay, I am diagnosed ADHD, late diagnosed ADHD. I am in the process of finding out whether I am autistic, I believe that I am.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that. Okay, I believe that I am. Yeah, I do believe that I am. But you know, again, it's a long process. You know, like everything, the waiting list and things.
Speaker 2:So, um, my daughter is diagnosed with ADHD and autism and my son, my three sons and my husband aren't diagnosed, but they present very, very similarly to all of us. So it's, yeah, we're a very mixed household and it shows up in very different ways in all of us. So it's, yeah, we're a very mixed household and it shows up in very different ways in all of us. So you know, whether, whether they are or not, they're not interested in going down any kind of diagnostic pathway and we respect that. The only reason why we started on actual, like diagnosis pathway is because of my daughter's my youngest daughter's journey through school and her emotional based school avoidance led to me not just settling, for she's a very shy, anxious child. I was like, no, I know my daughter, she's not and I thought there's something else going on, which then led me on my own journey. So, yeah, it's all very mixed. It's all we have different opinions in this house of of that. And, yeah, our dinner table talks are very interesting.
Speaker 1:When we first started the conversation, you said something about you know. I know that I'm a, I know that I am a good parent and I'm really interested where that confidence comes from. Claire, have you always been that confident? So you know, you started young, at 19, and were you confident then. Is that kind of your personality? Yeah, because they're my life yeah, they are my life and failure was failure.
Speaker 2:There isn't such thing as failure. I don't believe in parenting, but not doing it, not creating happy children, to me wasn't an option, because I had an amazing childhood and I am very, very lucky I still have my mum and dad. They live at the top of my road and they're like. They're like my heroes, and I look at them and I look at the way I was raised and I wanted that for my children. I wanted that my mum was a very traditional family. My mum was there, picking us up, taking us to school.
Speaker 2:She was even our dinner lady when she started working so yeah, yeah, and then she was a child minder, so she's always been very maternal. Um and my dad very traditional went out and worked and was the provider and I had a very lovely traditional upbringing. And I know there's a lot of controversy around kind of traditional and equal rights and all that, but to me that was my safety and I loved it and I wanted that for my children. And when I had my first child I was very much like um had not necessarily the best experience with his biological dad, so I was very adamant. I was like I'm not having any more children, I don't, I don't want to, like it was just going to be me and him against the world, just me and my son. And then I met my husband and everything changed and I have three more children and we've been together like 25 years now.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's been a journey from being a fierce single mom like yeah yeah, single mom, um, and then I went on and met my husband, had three more children. Bearing in mind I didn't want any more. So I kind of went change and I'm one of four as well, but I always wanted a big family. But obviously, having the experience I did in my past with my ex-partner, I was like that's not going to happen for me. I don't ever want to kind of go through that again so it was me and him against the world. But then obviously everybody's different, aren't they?
Speaker 2:so then, I met somebody the total opposite and had three more children. And here you are and here I am. So that being a mum I was saying this yesterday because obviously Mother's Day and I was talking to my husband yeah, I said it is my proudest achievement. I think I could earn millions and millions through work and stuff. Even if that happened, it would. Being a mum would be my proudest achievement. They've made me the person I am today. They've driven me to distraction as well massively like I.
Speaker 2:There was a stage where I didn't leave my house for two years because of post-natal depression and anxiety.
Speaker 1:So I've been to the depth and to the highest of it all yeah, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't change that's so important, isn't it, I think, for other parents to hear, because I think when you're in it and you know you've been through also sounds like your daughter being out of school and the stresses and the stress around that and being worried about their mental health and all that kind of stuff and where that can take us to as a parent. But actually when you're in it it feels like you're never going to get out of it. It's never going to change and I talk in my group, you know about it it does change, things do change. It might not be massively different in, you know, in six months time, but things do change and they do move, yeah, but when you're in it it feels like it just feels like you're wading through yeah, it literally you, you cannot.
Speaker 2:When I hear people say I just can't see this ever getting any better, or I can't see like the light at the end of the tunnel, that kind of saying and it's my one of my really amazing friends, helen.
Speaker 2:She used to say to me this too shall pass whenever it was something and it's true, because the tide of times it's impossible for life not to change, because life happens. It happens. Even when it's crap it happens excuse my language, but even when it's bad it happens and there's nothing we can do to stop that. Yeah, so I think as I've got older and I've kind of grown into myself, I've gone on a bit of journey of trying to not fight that.
Speaker 2:I've gone through acceptance that stuff is going to happen and because of what I went through in the past so between 17 and 25 because of all that trauma, I now appreciate so much more and then when I went into kind of that real high anxiety where I couldn't leave the house. The strength of what I'd been through previously brought me through that. So actually trauma to me was horrific, but it was my driver to get me through bad stuff because I'm like if I know I can, if I know I can work through that I can get through this next bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even if it's like on a really rubbish day, it's like, well, I know that I'm going to wake up tomorrow and I know that there are things that I can do to push through this. It's not going to be, all you know, songs and roses and wonderful, but it's going to be a day and it's going to happen because there's no choice about that, because I'm a mum and I've got to get on with it yeah, yes you just do, didn't you?
Speaker 2:you just have to put your big girl pants on and get on with it. That's what we do, and we go for another day and another day, and when I'm working with my families, that's what it's like. I'm like allow yourself these days, allow yourself time to just be, just be. You don't have to be happy, you don't have to be sad.
Speaker 1:Just get through it and then work towards something better, and I think that really interests me that bit clear, because I think you know I talk to my kids about that. Is that what it? You're not going to be happy all of the time, and I think I don't know whether it's a cultural thing or where it comes, or whether it's a social media thing that we toxic positivity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this thing is gotta be happy, and we're all aiming to be happy yeah, it really frustrates me because I think when we are working with families and young people, we need to stop measuring mental health by happiness and start measuring it with authenticity. So if you can show up as you are, as you're feeling, that is so much healthier than happy. Yeah, so much healthier, because the families and the young people that I worry about, that keep me awake at night in my work, are the ones that are like oh, it's fine yeah, it's fine and I'm like oh, no, no, no, no, because life isn't fine.
Speaker 2:Sometimes life is really hard. Sometimes work can be brilliant and we've got to celebrate that, but when you're like that all the time, yeah, I think that's a little bit unrealistic. Don't get me wrong. There are people that are naturally more happy than others. You know, some people are happy being miserable.
Speaker 2:I believe that yeah, I really do I think some people are happy being grumpy so it's like that's all right as well. Allow that to be, allow people just to be quiet. Like my oldest son, obviously he sees a lot in his job. He's just very chilled and quiet. But people are like, is he all right? So I'm like, yeah, he's fine, he's just quiet, leave him alone.
Speaker 1:So yeah, he's not being scared of those feelings, isn't it? I think because that's what I talk about when I'm talking about burnout is that what changed for me was I stopped being scared of burnout and I've been there and I knew it and I know those feelings and I used to be really, what about? Don't go back there, don't go back there. Whatever you do, don't go back there. And life happens, like you say, you just never know and you can do your very best and sometimes you might end up back there. Yeah, but it's not being frightened of those feelings and emotions and being able to say I, you know, I do feel that recognizing the signs that actually maybe you need to go through that to stop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe you need to give yourself permission to go through that, just to go. I needed that to get to recovery. And then recovery starts and then, if you hit it again, it's like, well, you know what that's like to go through that and you, you go through it with more knowledge, knowing you. You are going to come out the other side of it and I think that's important because that helps us move through. Like with my ADHD, I have a lot of paralysis, but I allow it. Now I give myself permission to feel it.
Speaker 2:It's frustrating and it's hard, but it to try to stop it is just the inevitable. It's like you're putting all your energy into trying to stop something, that your brain is going ah-ah, this is happening anyway. You've got no control over the chemical side of it. Off you go. You're going to be stuck for a little while. So I think getting to know ourselves is so, so important and allowing ourselves to show up authentically is okay, and I think so many young people as well feel too scared to give themselves permission just to be. It's always external, it's always what other people think, what other people are going to judge, and I think that's quite sad I was going to say we should probably say, claire, that, what is it you do?
Speaker 1:because we're getting deep here we've gone full therapeutic and I haven't even said yet we have had our little intro before we've got here. But tell us a bit about your background, claire, what it is that you do at the moment. So you're obviously Restless Minds UK is your, your business, but tell us a bit about your background and what it is you do, and because you're working with families that are having tricky times yeah.
Speaker 2:So going right back to when I was at school, I went to an all all girls convent school and I was thrown out of school and I just didn't fit in school. I didn't know back then that I was neurodivergent, so I was in a constant avoidance cycle. So I would try to get in trouble to get up lessons because I was struggling rather than ask for help. I would try to get in trouble to get out of lessons because I was struggling rather than ask for help. So I become like the joker and the clown and used to mess around and always get in trouble and thought I was really clever. But actually underneath it I was really struggling. Didn't realize at the time. I thought I was hilarious at the time. I've got a big group of friends.
Speaker 2:But looking back now, I masked my whole way through school, you know, and I was mode, you know, and then in the end it just all got too much. Um, so I then went on and become a young mum. I used to take massive risks, didn't realize. Obviously, with the ADHD, it all makes sense now so I.
Speaker 2:I got pregnant, um, at 19, had my son at 20, went on to be a mum, did various different jobs on my days, my cv's, so colorful and mixed up and you know again, signs were there. But I didn't realize. And, um, I went back to college when I was 40, like fast forward. So when I was 40 I decided I wanted to go back to college because everyone used to say to me, they used to come to me their problems all the time and say, oh god, anyone's got a problem. I'll go and speak to Claire, she'll help you, she'll help you. And I was just like they should just like dump all their problems on me and walk away lighter. And I'd be like, oh, my god, I feel really overwhelmed.
Speaker 2:I was that friend, I was the go-to friend and they were like you should do this for a living. And I was like you should, you should do this like an agony or something. We used to laugh, you know, like dear, dear Drew. And um, I was like okay. So I went back to college when I was 14, I studied counselling and I got to, I did my introduction, I did my level two, my level three, and then we went on to the diploma to become qualified. You know like you can register and become a qualified counsellor. And I was like I don't want to do this Because I found therapeutic, like the way of working therapeutically was too restrictive for me, because I prefer, like, guidance and advisory, whereas counselling is more reflective and listening.
Speaker 2:And so I met a lovely lady on my course and her daughter was setting up a company called Evolve Intervention and it was early intervention working supporting young people. And she said to me my daughter would love to have you working with her, I can guarantee it. So I met this. I met the CEO of Evolve and we got on so well and then I got my job and I worked with her for over six years. It was. So that was was amazing and I was delivering workshops into schools and my lived experience really helped me with like working with young people with anxiety and emotional better. See, I nearly did it there, liz.
Speaker 1:Emotional-based school avoidance EPSA.
Speaker 2:So I kind of worked in that space and then obviously COVID happened. So I was working, kind of worked in that space and then obviously COVID happened, so I was working online, one-to-one, and helping, mentor young people who had special educational needs, disabilities, social, emotional, mental health needs. So that happened, but unfortunately the founder of my company that I worked for she got cancer and her she's okay, it's okay, she's okay, she's recovering, um, but her recovery was really hard so she had to close down the business. Yeah, and I was very much like, but there's so many young people and families that need help. Especially post-covid, there was a like a huge crisis there still is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then the more I began to research and do courses and qualifications around SEND and helping my daughter, I was like it just kind of naturally went into well, I can't stop. So that's why I finished work last September and I set up Restless Minds straight away so that I could carry on working and that's where I'm at now and that's what I do and I mentor young people and I help families, I signpost, I don't do advocacy, I don't kind of attend meetings and things for them, but the whole point of Restless Minds is to empower families to know that they've got rights, and so that's kind of the family where I can signpost and give them guidance around what to do and what their rights are and what what their child's you know how to support their child. And then the other part of restless minds is one-to-one actually working with young people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and I love all of it. I love the whole thing. Young people can teach us so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's where.
Speaker 1:I'm you busy, then claire, yeah and being a mum of four. Well, I suppose, and that leads, me on to our question, and we're going to talk a bit about today I'm gonna get it right.
Speaker 1:So the terminology that most people are using at the moment. So we moved from emotionally based school refuses because the refusing bit felt really not right for our kids and claire, you've been through it with your and Claire, you've been through it with your daughter and I've been through it with my son. Um, so we've both kind of been there as parents and then I think the terminology was around kind of much more now being emotionally based school avoidance and that's the kind of terminology that you don't see people using, which is ebsa yeah what does that mean, claire, because's down yeah there's loads of words I'm going to read off my notes.
Speaker 1:I mean, is that all right?
Speaker 2:because I've got notes and because I can't retain information, because my meaning of my version, what my interpretation of it is it's a state of emotional distress when being continuously asked to learn in in an environment that doesn't meet your individual needs.
Speaker 2:So when we think about that, when children and young people are attending school, there is a sensory profile that needs to fit with that, there's an academic profile that needs to fit with that.
Speaker 2:There's an emotional profile that needs to fit with that, a social profile needs to fit with that, there's an emotional profile that needs to fit with that, a social profile needs to fit with that, and environmental.
Speaker 2:If any of those aren't aligned, that can create some kind of turmoil, emotional turmoil. But if you have layers of that, especially if you have a child with special educational needs or disabilities, or even like social or emotional mental health needs, even if it's just anxiety that might not necessarily be classed as ZEND that can create a big emotional response in them. If we continuously exposing them to that response that can actually go on to create a trauma response, exposing them to that response that can actually go on to create a trauma response. So this isn't about a child or young person choosing not to go to school because by our very nature we are inquisitive. We are born to learn so and young people want to learn. They do, but the environment needs to be right and when we think about young people, so emotional based school avoidance to me, when when you look at that, is viewed very differently from depending on what your lived experience is.
Speaker 2:So if your agenda is education, as in that mainstream education, your belief system is always going to be that that young person is better off in school yeah if you are a parent or carer who sees what happens with that young person when that's put on that person, you are not going to believe that's right for them. So it's what? What? I view that how we are at the moment with emotional based school avoidance is almost like completely separate, and this is how we're treating this issue. So the school has an agenda, parent and carers can see realistically what's happening. Mental health services can't do anything at the moment, to the point of crisis. So it's a big, big mess, I would call it. At this moment in time. It's a mess and the only solution I see coming forward is punishment, punitive punishment, fines and things like, for example, not restricted, what's the word? Reduced timetables? Yeah, but realistically, all you're doing is delaying the inevitable. So emotional-based school avoidance is something that needs to be looked at from the child's point of view and not continuously looking at this from a statistic, results driven, academic point of view. Because let's be honest, liz, you know, stressed brains can't retain information. Stressed brains can't learn. It's impossible because you're completely in your amygdala, you're in fight flight constantly, you're hypervigilant, you've got all the stress chemicals going for your body.
Speaker 2:So, realistically, if we're looking at the answer being of. You know that backside being on that seat, yeah, that's not education, that's not learning, that's a. That. That's attendance, that's all that is. That is just pure attendance, because box, yeah and that's it. And it's like we need to change that narrative because emotional based school avoidance isn't that child avoiding being in school, it's that child cannot be in that environment. It's not that saying that child cannot learn, it's saying that child can learn if the environment's right. And I feel since September, because obviously the new kind of all the stuff that's coming in like legally in terms of frameworks and attendance, it's ramped up hugely and it's having a massive impact on families, mental health, parents, the stress levels, you know the system is breaking. The parents, our children are looking to us as parent carers for their safety, for their reassurance, and when the parents can't give that anymore, that's dangerous it's scary, then it is scary.
Speaker 2:It is scary because it's like I. Now I'm working with young people who are going to school because they don't want their mum or dad to go to prison, and that is wrong on so many levels, you know so that misses the point, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:I think? And that's a bit like. Still, even the word avoidance to me doesn't feel quite right, and I'm not one of those people that get very, very hung up on words I think possibly because I'm dyslexic. Yeah, I find I never can find the right flipping word anyway. How much if I could just explain it to somebody. I hate terms and all that kind of stuff. I just don't like them, but they're necessary to describe things sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the word avoidance to me kind of almost still feels like there's a control element there for the kids. And you know, I know from my son's perspective is that when he was in that it was hard. When I even think about it now, I feel it makes me feel really emotional to go back to that. And you know, having him curled up in a ball in the front of a car and he literally got himself to school sobbing with his, you know, I'm going putting the sheet on everything and him, him trying to get in through the door and me standing there thinking I don't know what to do, I, I, and being very frightened even with the job that I've done, being very frightened that I was going to be in trouble.
Speaker 1:I was a single parent. I I feel I think there's some judgment around single parenting as well um, I felt, you know, if I was gonna get fined, I couldn't afford it. Um, and when I look back now, I think my priority absolutely would, 100% should have been him, and in that moment I will be really honest, me thinking I have to get him in school but you only know what you know in that moment, don't very much, very much.
Speaker 1:I just felt that there was he. I didn't feel he was avoiding school. I felt like he couldn't go to school. I want to.
Speaker 2:There's something about that terminology that needs to be something that it would be lovely, wouldn't it, just to try to find some, because EBSA really is like quite a dated term now that's kind of my, my reference point. But you know you're thinking five years on now. We're talking five years on, do you know?
Speaker 1:any other terminology for eclair that's around, I don't know, I've heard a few.
Speaker 2:I can't remember them, to be honest, but I think you a lot of people don't necessarily like that. But I look at the avoidance part of that so emotional because it is based in emotion.
Speaker 2:But, it's also based in. Actually it's beginning to impact young people physically now, because I work with children that harm the eating issue, so it has a massive impact. That psychological and emotional response has a massive impact. That psychological and emotional response has a massive impact physically. So although it's emotional, it is physical. So that's definitely something that needs to be considered and the avoidance part to me I to try to put a more positive thing is that fight flight response so it's that avoidance, as in a young person, is not choosing to avoid they're avoiding because their body won't let them, yes, do it.
Speaker 2:So it's we need. You know terminology, I think I use that still. Use that now because it's recognizable.
Speaker 1:Yes, but and it felt a long time to move from refusal, didn't it?
Speaker 2:refusal a lot of people still do it though, a lot of people honestly, even in schools. Now there's a lot of people that will still use the term refusal and you know it takes a long time. But again, that's somebody's lived experience. We have to be very mindful not to go in and attack people because of their use of language.
Speaker 2:It's just they only know what they know and if their belief is that that young person is refusing, yeah it's up to us to be able to have a really open, honest conversation about what that could feel like for that young person.
Speaker 2:If you're using language like that and I think we're too quick now to jump on people and and go into attack mode and I understand why people do it, because they're probably being traumatized by systems themselves but if we can educate and have open, honest conversations, I think that's the way to move forward, because otherwise, if it's a them and us it, it just creates too much separation and how are you ever going to work together towards best outcomes if we're all sitting in our egos and going well, I'm right, and I'm right, it doesn't work like that. The world shouldn't. It does work. Well, you know, that is the way the world functions, unfortunately. But if we didn't, if we could just drop some of that ego and the sense of right right, then I think we could do a lot more collaborative work between all the different communities and education and government, and we could. We could do a lot more like cohesion, like that kind of joint up thinking, but we are where we're at with that, unfortunately with your personal experience of it.
Speaker 1:So you went through, obviously with your daughter yeah did you know about it, clara, before you were in it? Because I didn't?
Speaker 2:yeah, I didn't either I had no clue, I was just like I know, I know that she's sad. Yeah, yeah, yeah but you feel you know people would not go to school because they were sick, or if they're in hospital or they had medical needs or they'll be bunking off. But that would just be a few days and then they get in trouble then they go back to school and it would all be all right.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize the extent of no, me too. This was um, until she would mask. So she would go into school and mask and put this smile on and I'd watch her do it. She'd get out of the car and she'd this smile on and I'd watch her do it. She'd get out of the car and she'd like, literally change as a person and I'd be like that's not right, that's not, she's not being herself like a genuine smile, um. And then it got too much.
Speaker 2:There was an incident where she was pushed down the stairs by two girls. She'd hurt her knee, she had a knee, um, a knee support on, so she was going slow down the stairs and these two girls were like, oh, are we up? And they pushed her down the stairs and I, and that instigated a lot of her anxiety, um. But there was a lot, lots of incidents that she would sit on her own every lunchtime and she, she had a doodling pad. I'd give her a doodling pad because it wasn't that she, she didn't want to be with other people. She couldn't.
Speaker 2:She, she had a doodling pad. I'd give her a doodling pad because it wasn't that she, she didn't want to be with other people, she couldn't. She, she used to come home and say they would be talking about each other and being quite spiteful, and she's she's a really kind girl and she couldn't understand why, if they were supposed to be friends, why they would all be being horrible about each other. She found people really confusing and I was like yeah, I hear you, you know so, so it that that kind of whole thing happened. And she I could see a decline in her mental health and then, diagnosis.
Speaker 2:By that point, claire, she got her diagnosis. No, no, no, that was before yeah, so I was noticing things that weren't just anxiety based.
Speaker 2:So, um it, and then the school were very much oh, you know, she's just anxious, she's shy, she's so lovely and I'm like, yeah, but she's lovely, but she's not learning, she's too scared to put her hand up, she's too scared, she can't communicate in class, you know. And she was really struggling with maths and, um, at one point I looked into dyscalculia I know people say that differently so, um, and I spoke to her maths teacher and her maths teacher's response was what's that? And I was like, oh, my goodness, you know, like this isn't going to work. I was like how can we get support for a young person if you don't know what that is? And for anyone who doesn't know that, because because obviously I had to research it it's basically equivalent to dyslexia, but with numbers, and it's things like distance, time, direction, space measurement, and it doesn't just affect your doing maths, it affects so many different things, like your ability to be able to understand.
Speaker 2:Like a portion of pasta, which is not my strongest point, I cook like I'm cooking for an army, I cook, I'm cooking mashed potatoes or pasta, so like there's lots of signs there that she has and I have which are very similar and I'll walk out of a shop and just carry on walking in the direction that I've just come from, and it's taken me like 10 minutes to go. I've just walked down here, so it's. There's so much more to dyscalculia so I just thought, oh my goodness, there's many, many layers of of need that she has in mainstream, socially and academically and emotionally, that I am going to have to really really fight for. But, to be honest, she was in a highly achieving academic school and I was like there's no way this is going to happen. It's not going to happen. So my decision was like where do I place my energy?
Speaker 2:because she was coming home like exhausted, crying every single night didn't want to go, didn't want to go, didn't want to go and obviously I didn't know anything about emotional best school avoidance. Then I was just like I'd had three children that had gone through mainstream. No problem at all. My three sons had gone through mainstream. Okay, all did well at school. Yeah, didn't like school but got on with it, had good attendance and my son's come out in the top one percent of the country and his exam results and done incredibly well. You know, it's just so academically I've never really really had any yeah.
Speaker 2:I had to deal with school in that way.
Speaker 2:Um so, this was so so different and it felt different and I was like I and then so I started doing my research and I was just like, right, okay, I have choices. So I said to her like what do you want what? What do you need from me? What can I do to help you with the way you're feeling? She said I want you to be my teacher. And I was like my god, I was thrown out of school, so I can't be your teacher. I'm a rubbish teacher. So I was just like, okay, I can't promise you that, but I can promise you that you don't ever have to go back to school again if you don't want to. And she literally we, we did the email deregister and she changed overnight, literally, the relief how easy was that decision?
Speaker 1:because there'll be a lot of parents out there that will be kind of caught in this. What do I do? And we as parents, all the time thinking I've got to make the right decision and we put so much pressure on ourselves that we want the best and we rightly want the best for our kids. Yeah, was that an easy decision? It took me a long time to get to where I got to okay, I was the absolute opposite, liz. I literally went.
Speaker 2:Okay, I didn't even think about it because I looked at her and I knew I would lose her if she carried on. I knew I'd lose the person that she is and I knew that, after having three children that are thriving and doing really, really well, I was like I don't have a choice and I always say to people people ask me that question quite a lot when I was going through the journey and I was like it was the hardest yet easiest decision ever. It was the riskiest decision. I was terrified. I didn't let her know that Inside I was absolutely bricking it.
Speaker 2:I'm like I don't know what I'm doing. I'm going to ruin her life. What am I doing To see the change in her? Intuitively, I knew I'm like I know this is the right thing. And then I, so I made that decision on the I think it was on the Friday and I was like you're not going back in on Monday and I did the D-Wedge letter. The process is easy. The process was it's probably going to be very different now with the children and wellbeing kind of bill, the new one coming in.
Speaker 2:But the process was pretty easy. She didn't have any hdp. I didn't fight for that because I I'd known about families and how long that process took and I was like, where do I place my energy? I've got to place it in her because her mental health has to supersede everything. You know it's like if you were at work as an adult, if your work was making you sick. The first thing that happens is you stop going to work, you get signed off work. We don't allow children the same grace as that. We don't. We punish, we're continuously punishing them. But I understand and I recognize I was in a really privileged position the fact that I could have her at home. There aren't many families that can do that yeah.
Speaker 1:So for me the decision was easy.
Speaker 2:But I absolutely wouldn't say to anybody oh yeah, just remove them. I wouldn't say that if obviously you couldn't provide that for your child in that moment. And that's where it becomes really complex for people.
Speaker 1:It is, and I think, I think, from my perspective, I knew, you know, I was trying to work, I was a single parent, I had a mortgage, I had two kids and I remember the panic in me thinking, yeah, I don't know how to keep him at home, yeah, I don't know how we survive as a family if he's not in school.
Speaker 1:What do I do? I was employed at the time so I was trying to get myself into work and that was becoming more and more difficult and the stress in the mornings. I didn't know whether I was going to get in, whether I wasn't going to get in, and at the time as well, I was working with some kids that had, you know, quite significant attachment needs and me not being at those sessions had a big impact. Yeah, and, but I've also got to prioritize my own kid in this um and it's it's really difficult and we ended up I've done a slightly different route to you. We had to go down the um getting the EHCP to get to the A8 hospital and that's what I would say that's what.
Speaker 2:I would say I say, if you can't do it the way I did it, I mean, obviously I had to work, do it around work. It wasn't like I would. Just you know.
Speaker 2:I didn't have anything to do. I had to do all my work, but luckily I was at home and I could facilitate that. Um, but what I? That's exactly what I would say to that when I work with parents. If they're not in a position to be able to do that, then your next best thing that you can do is become like and I've done some courses recently for a charity, about empowerment, about upskilling and knowing your rights and becoming a massive advocate for your child to fight, yeah, for what they're legally entitled to in education, and you do have to fight for it like an EHCP process and going through that and, if that doesn't work, and EOTAS or an EOTIS package. It's like all of those things. That's what I help with, like doing that signposting and guidance for because I know elective home education isn't an option and, to be honest, elective home education wasn't an option for my daughter either, because it didn't work. I tried to do that at home, so that's when I went on an unschooling journey, because replicating the curriculum did not work.
Speaker 2:For her it's not the way she learns. So that's a whole nother story. That was like my own schooling journey with her, but what I do with my work with parents if you've got a young person who your child who's experiencing emotional based school avoidance, I help empower them to find out all the rights. What's your next step? Speak to this person, have a meeting with this person. They're not allowed to do that, because a lot of schools I've had quite a few parents recently have said to me that schools have said to them maybe you need to think about whether this school is the right place for you, for your child, and I'm like it's off rolling. You can't do that and unless you know that, yeah, yeah, yeah, as a parent, you go oh, okay, maybe we'll start thinking about another setting. It's like whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, like let me tell you what that is and let me tell you how to deal with that. And that's how? Because unless you're in that position, why would you?
Speaker 1:know these things. That's why it's so important. Is it to find that support? Because, especially if you're in that survival mode and, let's face it, when some of our kids are as poorly as they are, we are surviving and making sure they survive. And I couldn't take information on. I mean, at the best of times anyway, reading is a challenge.
Speaker 1:There was no hope now I had to find groups that I could go into and you know, I don't know whether you're part of the group as well, but I know for me heidi maverick group was amazing, a godsend for me, with all those parents in there, that I would pop in and just ask a question and somebody in there would go yeah, why don't you look at this? Or have you thought about that? Or finding someone like you that you can go and just run those things past people? Because that part of my brain had gone offline and, like you said, I was in my fright flight, freeze responses. I was in my survival modes. I couldn't get to that cognitive part of my brain. It's not logical it's not logical.
Speaker 2:When we're scared of our children, we don't think logically. Why would we? We're like. All you see is a child and you feel so disempowered and helpless that it's a. As a parent, it's a frightening place to be so as a young, person.
Speaker 2:You just think, oh god, and I know as. And the reason I guess I've got so much empathy is because I was that young person. I used to feel physically sick. I used to have to go into school holding bottles of water because I used to feel physically sick going in there and then I sat that smile on my face and masked, and when I saw my own daughter doing it, I guess I had the privilege of hindsight to be able to go. I don't want the same for you and I can see it's going the same for you and that's why I put a stop to it.
Speaker 2:But not every parent can do that. So that's where it's important that, although we hear a lot of like you know, the chest thumping of the authority and the government and you're going to do this and you're going to get arrested and you're going to get fined, there are things that parents can do. There are lots of things that you can do. I guess what's important to me around that is the needs of the child, but also empowering the parents to know that actually you cannot be bullied by systems. You have rights, your child has rights, and also what's really, really important in my work I always kind of, you know, try to focus on that. You've got choices. You don't have to be stuck in these things.
Speaker 2:There are things you can do, because I think the most frightening place to be as a parent is feeling like you don't have a choice. You know, like you said, they're in the car and they're crying and they're screaming and they physically can't go in. If you knew in that moment what your rights were and choices and things like that, it wouldn't have it would have felt scary, but not as scary. Yeah, no, I totally agree. Yeah, so I think that's important. So, yeah, that's kind of a lot of the focus that I I try to keep it on positive, because everything's a bit doom and gloom and actually, if you can look for those little small wins and those little small changes, isn't if you can look for those little small wins and those?
Speaker 1:little small changes, isn't it? You can take something back and sometimes you know I talk about again in the burnout stuff. What I do is that we can't always like the system, we can't change the system we'd like to, and we're trying people are out there trying and fighting the big fight and I wouldn't be without them.
Speaker 1:But you know, there are times when things can't change we cannot change it and that's a horrible place to sit as a parent, a horrible place. When it's about your child and it's making your child mentally unwell, physically unwell, whatever, that's not a nice place to sit. And it's like you say, it's trying to find the little bits that we can take back and the little bit of control we can take back, and and that often comes through knowledge- and it's where you can find that knowledge and I think absolutely what.
Speaker 1:What I'm going to do, claire, and when we're going to cover. I'm going to sidestep us in a minute but, I we're going to put all your details in the show notes.
Speaker 1:So if people want to get hold of you to talk about this type of thing. You can do that with claire, and we'll put all her contact details in there as well so people can find you. Thank you, but the other thing that I really wanted to kind of touch on with you was around your adhd diagnosis so I know this is something relatively new for you and we were just chatting actually before we came on air, didn't we?
Speaker 1:and we're starting to record even about the med side of things for you. But I'm just really curious because I think for me I've been diagnosed later in life with as dyslexic I know I am, I knew I was dyslexic, um, but the actual diagnosis for me has been life-changing, I suppose and that sounds a bit it's been life-changing no, it's true though, isn't it?
Speaker 1:and it's given me a better understanding of myself, and I always thought I'll just let you just mean I can't spell me my reading writing a bit rubbish, but it's so much more than that, um. So I just wondered, because there'll be other parents out there maybe that are on uh, I suspect I could be. Um, they might be waiting for diagnosis. You know, often the majority of the listeners we have to the podcast are coming from families with additional needs, and we know we've got neurodivergence in the family. There's like it's like to have come from somewhere. So I just kind of wonder, claire, can you tell us a little bit about your journey with your ADHD diagnosis?
Speaker 2:yeah, I do. You know what I?
Speaker 1:what was the biggest kind of um thing for me was actually hitting perimenopause.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, I actually, yeah, I I. When um my daughter was given her diagnosis, I began to recall like another thing we like with with ADHD, we can hyper fixate on things that our brain finds interesting.
Speaker 2:So we go dopamine mining. So we, if something sparks that dopamine in our brain, we are all in, like 100% in. You know, whether it lasts two days or 20 years, we're in, you know, we're like fully committed. So my hyper fixation actually came about adhd actually, what is it and what? How does it impact people? Um, because I really wanted to help my daughter to be able to lean into her strengths and being given these diagnosis.
Speaker 2:I have autism and adhd. Obviously, I knew a lot about it in my work, but I wanted to take like a real deep dive into, like the layers of it, because a lot of people think that ADHD is just a specific set of characteristics. Yeah, and it really isn't. It is so much more than that. And at the moment I'm doing some videos on my Facebook like like breaking down those layers, because there are some things that you think, oh, that's just, you know, that's just a normal thing. And then when you start looking at other say normal quote unquote normal. But when you start looking at other people, you're like well, you don't do that, and they're like no, oh, ok, isn't that just something we do? No, and they're like OK, so isn't that just something we do? No, and they're like okay. So it really kind of opened my eyes to it. So I then started I'd always always had. We're now looking at the basic characteristics, like the risky behavior.
Speaker 2:Um, I'm an oversharer. I'll be totally honest with you, liz. I took some risks when I was younger. I was every parent's worst nightmare of a young person. I, yeah, took some massive risks and put myself in some like really quite dangerous feet, like positions when I was younger and, um, I've always had an internal restlessness about me, like not an external like I can, I can see it. Um, it has probably got worse as I've got older. But in terms of restlessness I mean like an, a warning, always wanting to be doing something but not quite knowing what it is, or wanting to, um, randomly, I'll just like randomly book holiday or just like really spontaneous and just impulsive. And there was loads and loads of signs there.
Speaker 2:But then when I hit payment, I had all of these kind of what, what? All those characteristics before but like worse. But the paralysis got worse and my moods were fine, but the way that I functioned and the way I was thinking and the way obviously running a business started highlighting it to me. All these things that were needed that I found really hard and I was like surely it's not that hard just to do, I don't know, like a spreadsheet and do your invoices and whatever, but everything become like really compounded.
Speaker 2:So I went to my GP and I was like I don't know what is. I was like I don't know if it's ADHD, I don't know if it's perimenopause, I don't know if it's hyper, like hypervigilance, because I've always had anxiety, but that's. I've gone through a lot of stuff where I've worked on that now. So I had all these layers of things. It could have been trauma, because I was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, so it could have been all these different things. And my GP was like right, okay. And I was like I'm telling you I'm not saying I've got ADHD, but what I'm saying is this, this, this, this. There's loads of different things. If you looked at the characteristics, it could all be those things yeah so I could have been diagnosed with any any of those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so anyway they, they did the referral and I waited. You know, it's like forever and ever. I did the right to choose. Okay, I wish I never done that. Now just like you know, yeah, full disclosure.
Speaker 2:I wish I never did it. Um, I did. I did the right to choose and it was really funny because when I went in I saw the consultant, he was sitting there and he was talking. Anyway, I got my diagnosis and in my report it's got things like was sitting in the chair and couldn't sit, still was wiggling her feet, and it was all things that I didn't know I was doing. Oh yeah, so I was like you were thinking that yeah, I'm thinking.
Speaker 2:Outwiggling, oh yeah. So I was thinking that I'm thinking outwardly, no one can spot this like it's going to be perimenopause and but you know, the interesting thing was he said to me he was very close whether I got my diagnosis or not, he said, because it's anything when you're a child. It was. He said to me one of the questions is, if I walk past you in a classroom, would I, would you, would I know you're in there? In other words, would I be running around causing chaos? I said no, you wouldn't. I said I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna try and get a diagnosis, I'm not gonna lie. No, you wouldn't. I said because I was so frightened I'd get in trouble that I masked.
Speaker 2:You would have seen me, I would at primary school, I would have been perfect, I would have been like that, that, that child that's just off the radar. That's the criteria you've got to present, like that as a child, otherwise you don't get a diagnosis. But when mine all fell apart was secondary school and puberty. So realistically, it's like I got my diagnosis because it started at 11. But if it's anything like beyond that as a young child, you don't tick the boxes. So you could have abhd, but you could mask through primary school and you could have been really well behaved. You wouldn't get a diagnosis why did you say around?
Speaker 2:I'm just really interested about the right to choose, oh um, because I don't know if anybody knows this but if you're deciding to go right to choose, you have to pay for all your medication and all your further consultancy. So I now pay £200 a month for my medication and can you not move back on to the NHS Titration? You go through a thing called titration, but you have to pay privately to get to to go through titration. So once your medicine's right which it could happen straight away it didn't happen straight away. For me it still hasn't.
Speaker 2:So you've got to get all your medication right before they send you they. They transfer your care to your gp, but some gps now are not not doing that, they won't. So you've got to stay on a private pathway. Also, if ever you want your medication change, you've got to stay on a private pathway. Also, if ever you want your medication changed, you've got to go back to your private consultant to pay for them to make sure those adjustments are made. It is yeah, so what they don't tell you? You're right to choose war, which is I suppose it's good for if you're going for an autism diagnosis, because obviously you don't need any medication, but for ADHD, if you want medication, you've got to pay for it and I pay £125 for a 15-minute phone call, £50 for a prescription, £15 for it to be sent, recorded delivery because it's a controlled drug, £95 for the actual prescription. So yeah, if you're doing right to choose, be prepared that you'll have to pay for your medication.
Speaker 2:Well, that was with the provider I went with I'm assuming it's the same, but obviously don't quote me on it. You might.
Speaker 1:It might be different for different might be worth just investigating it, but if you are going to, do right to choose.
Speaker 2:What I would say to everybody is just check the questions. Yeah, because I did I knew, thought I knew a lot about ADHD. I missed that question completely and then was like I just wouldn't even think of asking yeah, so yeah, but the report was it was.
Speaker 2:I was like it could be anything. I didn't necessarily think it was ADHD, but I wanted answers and all of the little things that he wrote in there about my movement. I was shaking, I was moving, um, and I was like, oh, my goodness, all of those non-verbal cues, yeah, you picked up on and it was put all in my report and I was like, oh wow. But yeah, it was literally nearly didn't get it. Everything was there, but he could not tick that childhood box until I said the age that it started to change, because he just assumed it was post. I think it was post 13, I think it is something like that. But there's a, there's a cut off point. Yeah, yeah, if you don't display those characteristics when you're very young, you won't get a diagnosis.
Speaker 1:Another tick box exercise yeah, I understand how they have to have I do, yeah rules around it, but then we don't always fit in a box, do we're?
Speaker 2:not, we're not carbon copies of each other. It's so individual and it's that's the difficulty and I think that's where a lot of people are getting missed, because they're not a like, a typical profile of, like what's in those characteristics. And that's why I want to do my video, like why so I'm doing them? Because I want people to be aware that just because it's not these nine characteristics because even knowing there's three types of adhd, a lot of people know that and it's like even that can be really helpful to people they're going on that journey because be really helpful to people. They're going on that journey because I wasn't external, I'm much more internal. So the inattentive type, so yeah, it's just, it's an interesting journey. But yeah, I've got my diagnosis and I've got my medication and what I'm interested about Claire is has or do you think your ADHD affects your parenting?
Speaker 2:big question um, yeah, yeah, I think it has those and cons, um, I know probably more con. Okay, because I was. I would say to my husband this morning actually, my kids have never, ever been late for school. Yeah, they've never, ever forgotten anything. They've never, ever not shown up for anything. I was meticulous, so organised on top of everything, but I was bloody exhausted.
Speaker 2:I was going to say route to burnout completely and that and obviously, hence the reason why earlier, when I said, even when I got the postnatal depression and anxiety, when and obviously it will stem from the PTSD when I didn't leave my house for two years, it's because I was terrified that the world was such a scary place. So what I could control was being a mum and being in my home, and that's when I had to get help because I didn't want that transferred to my kids. I didn't want them to be scared of the world. I was terrified of the world. I thought the world, there was so much danger in the world, but I didn't want to my kids to grow up anxious, and so you know, and there's questions that I'm like oh, did you know with my daughter, was that something that she picked up from?
Speaker 2:me but actually my three eldest sons. It was different, you know. So it wasn't that. Hence the reason why I thought maybe there's something more than just the anxiety which they turned out that there was. But yeah, it was one of those things where I don't think it was a pro, I think it was a con, because I didn't stop I was like 100 miles an hour of making sure that almost perfectionism like not perfectionism as in like aesthetically.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But because of how much I struggled with time management and organisation and prioritisation, I had to focus so much on that that it was like all or nothing. Yeah, so it helped don't get me wrong, because obviously you know it made me very, very efficient and very a great mum and be able to do those things. But actually I was exhausted, yeah, completely. I probably went through burnout. I don't even know, lizzie. Well, you probably would recognize it in me if I'd gone through my history with you, but at that time I wouldn't have cast it as burnout, I just went and went and went, because that's what because stopping wasn't an option.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's not until I've got older, where the kids don't need me so much that I'm like oh my God, that was exhausting, like I feel like, as they've got older and they've come out of it, especially with my youngest, with the emotional based school avoidance and that home ed, with that part of it I'm now like, oh, I feel like I can breathe and that's starting to run a business and I now feel like I can actually breathe, like this is the time where I should be like, but actually I've gone the opposite way and I'm just like, oh, this is actually all right, because all of those years I guess I was hypervigilant.
Speaker 2:I was constantly hypervigilant and constantly making sure that everything was done because it was such a challenge, because if I let it slip it was going to go completely. I guess if I unmasked it would have all unraveled and fallen apart. So I was not unraveled, I was like tight coil spring, like everything's got to get done, super efficient. So, yeah, I think that was my adhd and probably a lot of trauma showing up in that way if you could go back, claire, would you give yourself a piece of advice back then?
Speaker 1:would you change that or a bit, like we said, was it something you just had to go through to recognize it, or would you? What kind of advice would you give yourself if you could go back?
Speaker 2:As a parent, I wouldn't change what I've done. I wouldn't change any of that. As an individual, I think I give myself more permission now. So I'm probably I was. I would look back and go. I wouldn't change the way I was as a mum because I was in a very privileged position that I could be at home and not work for a long time. My husband went out and worked and I said, if I'm having more children, I want to be there for them like my mum was for me. Yeah, so I did the school runs, I did all of that. I was very privileged in that respect. I had time with them, which was so lovely, and I could get all that stuff done. I think if I had to work and do that at the same time, be a mum, that would have crucified me. I think I would have just been like my ADHD would have really unraveled yeah, but because I had time to do the
Speaker 2:lunch boxes and do all the trips and do all of the uniforms and all of that and get them there on time and do all the clubs. Because I had the privilege of time and I think time is the best commodity anyone could give themselves. Yeah, because I had that, I was able to do it. So I wouldn't I wouldn't go back and change any of that, yeah, um, what I would change is I probably would have been kinder to myself and put myself because it was all about kids all the time, and I think, like any of us, we just put ourselves below. We're on the bottom of the pile, aren't we when we're a parent.
Speaker 2:But I didn't prioritize myself much. So it's very much like oh you know, do you want to come and do this? And I'll be like oh no, I can't do that because I've got to do this. And it was very much like I was at the bottom of the pile, but I thrived. I guess my best role in life has been being a mum, so I thrived in that role yeah but I kind of separated who I was.
Speaker 2:So I was mum and then I kind of forgot who Claire was, and it's not until the kids have got older. I'm now growing into Claire. I now know. I now know who I am better than I have in my whole life.
Speaker 1:I think that happens to so many of us, isn't it I talked to so many parents about and I felt similarly. I had this moment where probably people have heard me talk about before. I had somebody ask me what do you enjoy doing? And I couldn't answer the question and at that moment I thought, oh, I've just lost everything about me, and that was in amongst what was kind of going on for my youngest and Ietos and tribunals and all that, and I had completely lost who I was and that's coming back slowly.
Speaker 2:But it's not. It's a process, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful quote and it was. I read it and I've absolutely loved it since. And it's who were you before the world told you what you should be? Nice? And I was like, oh my God, like you're a mum, you're a sister, you're a friend, you're a CEO or an employee, you're all of these things, but who are you? And it's like I don't, and that's exactly. It's like. Who are we especially?
Speaker 2:I think a lot of that is down to parenting as well, because, at the end of the day, that's the sacrifice you make, isn't it? It's like, well, you know, you chose to bring a human into the world. You have the responsibility of raising them. When things become complicated and they don't go textbook like, according to what everything's going to be, it blindsides you. Because it's like, okay, I'm equipped to be a parent, I'm equipped to, I know how to do this, I know how to be the parent and love them and nurture them and fulfill their needs, but when a system can't meet their needs, I'm not equipped to work out how to deal with that, because that's new and that's not expected. Because it's like, when you look around and you know all my friends and not all of them, thank goodness, because I've got some kind of clarity around that.
Speaker 2:But when you see other people's kids just getting on with it and doing it and you're just like, oh god, you know, like oh, I'm a little bit left field here, I really I'm a bit out of my comfort zone because everything to me was like textbook, normal, as it were. And then all of a sudden, with my daughter, totally different. Yeah, and I was just lucky that I worked in that field, that I had access to so much resource and so many people that I could build that community and I could stop being scared and I could realize, oh, actually there is another way of doing this. And it was a good way. And it's ended up amazing for her, you know, absolutely, and good for me as well, because I just stepped into my brave. I was like, well, it's time to step up now and do something different. And, you know, do this home education thing, which I had no clue what.
Speaker 1:I was doing. If you could give a top tip, though, claire, if you were thinking about those other parents, what would your top tip be to another parent that's maybe struggling at the moment? Okay, I've got quite a few, so be prepared.
Speaker 2:I've got top tips, so I would say drown out the noise yeah we are. We are so conditioned to listen to other people's opinions and thoughts and feelings and we take that on. We sometimes just have to do this and cover our ears and drown out that noise. We have to trust ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Trust yourself If you are the best person. Yeah, really hard. You have to learn to look inside and not outside. So when we're looking for validation, when we're looking for answers, when we're looking for somebody, someone to tell us what to do, you can pick and choose the bits, but then ultimately, you've got to look completely inside yourself and trust yourself. That is the right thing. And listen to your child and believe them. If they are telling you that they are struggling, that is coming from somewhere and it might be just for a few days, but sometimes and most of the time, there is something fundamental going on underneath that needs listening to and believing. Because imagine yourself as a young person and if you had something to say to an adult world, you would want someone to believe you and you'd want someone to hear you, because you're just a very, very small voice amongst a big lot of noise. And my last one would be and this is a lot of when I'm working with young people and their families is be aware of your own conditioning.
Speaker 2:We are literally coerced and controlled into thinking that school-based learning is the only way that we can learn, and learning and education are two very different things. A mainstream education is education. Learning is lifelong. We can reinvent our career, our learning, our education at any time. We're putting people into a box of between four and at 16 to 18, this is where you do your learning, and if you don't do that, you're failed at life, and we were taught that as a generation. Yeah, and we carry that condition into belief that our children are going to fail without that, and that's just not true anymore. There are so many other ways that children and young people can succeed in life without being traumatized by a continuous exposure to an environment that's not good for them.
Speaker 2:This isn't about changing our children. This is about giving them opportunities to learn when they can learn and the things that they want to learn, so being able to. If, for example, you've got a young person that's struggling with the mainstream academia academia, like the things that are being taught, lean into the things they love, so what? So what they don't do then is completely disengage in their love of learning, because if they disengage completely from learning because they think that school is the only way and that's a measure of their ability and that's constantly telling them they're not enough, then they're not going to engage in learning at all.
Speaker 2:So we need to keep their love of learning engaged. So, if they've got a hobby, just lean into their strengths and encourage them and build them up in the way that all of the things that they love build them up that way, so school can't build them up. Build them up in another way, yeah, and allow that space for them to grow in learning that isn't necessarily mainstream. So, yeah, they're my top tips. There's a lot of them, but it's good to have them.
Speaker 1:It's good to have them.
Speaker 2:I prefer looking at it from an empowerment point of view than the doom and gloom, because there's a lot of doom and gloom and I think that can keep us stuck sometimes.
Speaker 1:It really can, and I love that. I think that's very much as well how we work in ot, as ots is looking about. Okay, well, how can we make this different? What can we do differently? Um, and where can you take some of that, that power back and that, that control back? Um, claire, we're just about to finish, so I want to say thank you ever so much for coming on it's been lovely. Thank you, as always a pleasure to chat.
Speaker 1:We could, we could chat for hours, I know that, but probably people might have signed off by that point podcast to go to sleep, to and what I wanted to do is just give you the last couple of minutes is just we'll say we'll put all your details in the show notes. Have you got anything particularly going on at the moment, claire? I know sometimes there's a bit of time before my podcasts come out, but I know there's a lot going on in your page, your Facebook page. Are you mainly on Facebook? Yeah mainly on Facebook, I do a little bit on Instagram.
Speaker 2:I'm just LinkedIn and Facebook but, um. Restless Minds UK is my page if you want to come over and have a look. What I'm doing at the moment is the deep dive really into ADHD. That sounds amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's 24 videos over 24 days not consecutive days because obviously life happens and I don't get one out every day but it's a deep dive into ADHD and some of the areas maybe that people don't actually realize could potentially be adhd and that could be really important, maybe for some of those parents out there that are thinking, hmm, yeah, I'm wondering yeah, and at the end of each video I put like, um, like little helpful tips or strategies, just to try that, so that it's it always each video ends with some solution, as opposed to just information. It's just some bits to try. So, yeah, that's what I'm doing at the moment.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah and then, obviously, you do your one-to-one. Yeah, you do your one-to-one support as well. I've got spaces now.
Speaker 2:I'm advertising now for after easter because I've worked term time only. So, um yeah, I'm taking on new people for easter for one-to-ones and I just do free intros. So if anybody wants some support or feels like it's the right support, then very happy to do a free intro and then I just do some free stuff, some signposting and stuff. But it's all on my facebook page, it's all over the group claire?
Speaker 2:no, I did. I have got a group. I've got restless minds. Uk support your way. But I do most of my stuff on my page on your main page.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's mostly yeah, best place to find me it's just on my facebook page or on linkedin and my phone number and my email is on there so you can get in touch that way if anybody needs any support around anything. Really just not necessarily just emotional based school avoidance, but if you're just struggling in general with your yeah, your child or young person, or if you're an educator and you think I want to just change up the way that I work with young people. So I always love doing that work as well, because there's some amazing teachers. Unfortunately, they're in systems where they're not given the opportunity or the space to be able to connect with the young people and I can help them, maybe try and help them to be able to do that within the restrictions and limitations that they've got as well. So, yeah, I always love doing that work with schools amazing thank you ever so much claire, lovely to see you.
Speaker 2:Well done on all your work, amazing work. Thanks, loving. I'm loving watching your journey, liz oh, thanks, thanks.
Speaker 1:I think we complement each other well. Claire with what? We do yeah I'll chat a box in that's all right that's all right. Lovely to see you lovely to have you on and we will see you soon all right thank you so much for hanging out with me today.
Speaker 1:Whether you were walking the dog, folding laundry or just hiding in the toilet for five minutes peace and there's no judgment here. I'm glad you chose to spend your time with me today. If you're a parent or a carer of a child with additional needs and you're feeling overwhelmed, burnt out or just like you need a bit of backup, I've got you and I'm here to help you find a way through the tricky stuff, like the moments when you feel like you might just run out of steam, so that you can be the parent that you want to be and take care of yourself too. If you want to connect, you can find me on all the social media sites Facebook, instagram and LinkedIn where I share more tips, resources and real talk. And hey, if this episode made you laugh out loud or feel a little less alone, why not buy me a coffee? Just click the link in the show notes. It's a small way to show your support and keep this podcast going. Take care of yourself. Today You're doing an amazing job.